[Abdullah]

@Perry you mean if a formula has only 10% SLES and another formula has only 5% SLES, salt response will be different between these two formulas? 

[Abdullah]

Maybe you are using too much GMO or too little surfactants. 

It is liquid and it doesn’t need heating to mix with surfactants

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah You should feel a difference with a Guar HPTC formula…maybe you need to increase the level. Also, you could add some silicone (same principle as in hair).

I definitely see a difference in foam but I can’t notice any difference on my skin. 

What type of effect should i look for in guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride in skin cleanser?

For hair i am using Amodimethicone. 
I have experienced that if i used Amodimethicone too much or in wrong way in shampoo, it irritates the scalp. Is it safe to use Amodimethicone in skin products?

[Abdullah]

MariaGarcia said:

I’m just a student and maybe I’m talking nonsense, but I think that the needs and therefore the conditioning mechanisms are not the same for hair or skin, so there are no exact analogs. I understand that hair conditioning depends more on aspects such as pH, ionic charge (and that is why cationic substances are used) or the closing of the cuticle. In a shampoo I understand that the type of surfactants used also makes a big difference (I don’t have much experience but I have achieved results that I really like using a combination of anionic, non-ionic and amphoteric surfactants). I would also add some refatting agent, and some active ingredient (I personally love the effect of inulin).

In the case of skin, I believe that conditioning depends on maintaining and reinforcing the barrier function of the skin so it is important that the mixture of surfactants is effective but gentle (and in lower imputs than in shampoos), and at least, a refatting agent and a moisturizer should be incorporated, or even an very small imput of a lipid. It doesn’t make sense to me to use a cationic ingredient in a face or body wash.

I find that anyway it is not a single product that achieves the result, but the proper combination and proportion of all of them.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

What is your formula, method and what problem are you facing?

[Abdullah]

What is your pH? 
Is that 0.02% xanthan gum? 

I would say use 0.2-0.3% xanthan gum.

Also ratio of surfactants have big impact on viscosity. As you dont know the composition of m 202, why don’t you make a batch with only 202 and remove GMS SE & fatty alcohol?

I am sure the ratio in 202 is optimized to give high viscosity. 

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

A: Montanov 202 and glyceryl stearate SE have a higher melting/processing temperature than the other ones (~10°C higher). Generally, 70°C is on the lower end for all of them. Try 80°C.

B: Montanov 202 is also different insofar as it can handle higher amounts of oils or rather is meant to be used with considerably higher oil phases.

C: The four emulsifiers all result in lamellar gel networks rather than micellar emulsions; hence, they may not take too high too long shear mixing (especially under the ‘gelling’ temperature) very well.

D : Because of point C, all these emulsions will ‘ripen/harden’ over the next few hours to days. Give them some time to fully attain their final viscosity. Cooling rate can also be part of the difference (M 202, because of point A, doesn’t do well when cooled too fast and can’t ripen in the worst case).

Is gelling temperature below 50°c temperature?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Indeed, total free surfactant below CMC wouldn’t necessary be the sum of each free surfactant, measured separately.

That is good to know.
Thanks

[Abdullah]

@grapefruit22 Pantene shampoo that i purchased from UAE had better conditioning effect when hair was wet & dry compared to my shampoos. 
Maybe it is how different do dimethicone and Amodimethicone feel from Shampoo. I use Amodimethicone and Pantene had dimethicone.

My shampoos are better than almost every local shampoo that i have tested. 

[Abdullah]

If you want, I could show you how to check things like this on CosIng .. EU database SUSMP for AUS is a bit tricky to use, but also handy. 

Sure i want

I sometimes wonder why are they not specifying some limits but they are there.

For example dimethicone is OTC skin protector. They don’t say which viscosity so that should mean any viscosity is. But in reality viscosity ≥350 is skin protector, not lower.

Same for SLES, from experience during manufacturing our products, i know that 70% SLES, can be damaging the skin. 

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

As there are no regulatory limits (EU, AUS), I’d say 100%. I believe that is how they were testing the ingredients, neat on the rabbits ears and wait. Or submerge them into solution and wait. 

Thanks ????

[Abdullah]

What is the purpose of this product?

What benefits you want to see and why you want to make such a product?

A simple cleanser with just 4-5% SLES will be a better cleanser and less drying and much less expensive that your product.

Your problem maybe not enough heating or too much surfactants. 

[Abdullah]

ggpetrov said:

Abdullah said:

ggpetrov said:

Abdullah said:

@ggpetrov What percentage of emulsifiers did you use?

1 Usually I use about 3%, but I always pair the emulsifiers. 

Thanks 
For me BTMS dry and powdery feel was noticable from 0.5-1% BTMS. What percentage of pg3 stearate will have that feeling of 0.5-1% BTMS if it can have it al all?

I’ve just looked at my worksheet. 2% Softfeel PS + 0.5% GMS Citrate + 1% Cetearyl alcohol and 8% fat phase. Also I have used 0.2% Sodium Carbomer. Keep in mind that Softfeel tends to thicken the emulsion, so with this incredients I’ve got a thick lotion. The sensorial properties of the emulsion are wondefull. You have enough playtime, but when you finish, the emulsion dissapears literally. The feeling is that you have nothing on your skin, and even more you almost can’t leave a fingerprints on the objects. Meanwhile the skin is fresh and soft.

Thanks 
That is the type of feeling i like too.

[Abdullah]

@ketchito thanks 

My point was aslo just to know if the amount of free surfactant below CMC of each surfactant will interact and make micceles so total free surfactant is not the same as the sum of total free surfactant of each surfactant. 

[Abdullah]

Leaving SLES on skin doesn’t have any benefit for skin but we can guess how mild it is.

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

On average, perhaps. In any specific instance, perhaps not.
You may be taking the metaphor of a micelle a bit too seriously. They do not last in some specific form for any extended period of time.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

I suppose theoretically if enough water was lost you could push the system to the other side of the salt curve and start losing viscosity.

See in this diagram in this surfactant system that viscosity peaks at a salt concentration around 1% and drops off around 1.6%
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/shows-the-salt-curves-for-the-SLES-alone-and-in-the-presence-of-the-four-additives-The_fig13_255766342

Thanks 
I thought the ratio of NACL & surfactants will be the same so viscosity will not change but i got the point.

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah It’s always better to add xanthan gum at the start, where it has more water available, and you can use more mixing to disperse it without risk of aeration.
do you mean add xanthan gum to water before adding any surfactant?
I am using inline homogenizer for large batches so aeration is not a big problem.
 Now, formulas thickened with high levels of NaCl tend to dramatically reduce viscosity in a warmer environment, so there’s a risk of sedimentation from your pearl (put a sample in the oven and see what happens).
this is a good point. Temperature here now is the hottest it can get. I made these samples for this temperature. I will check them in cold temperature to see how thick they will become.

[Abdullah]

ggpetrov said:

Abdullah said:

@ggpetrov What percentage of emulsifiers did you use?

1 Usually I use about 3%, but I always pair the emulsifiers. 

Thanks 
For me BTMS dry and powdery feel was noticable from 0.5-1% BTMS. What percentage of pg3 stearate will have that feeling of 0.5-1% BTMS if it can have it al all?

[Abdullah]

@ggpetrov What percentage of emulsifiers did you use?

[Abdullah]

What do you like most about pg3 stearate? 

In my opinion amount of pg3 stearate is ≤40%

[Abdullah]

“Too much salt makes worm-like micelles go lamellar, and shampoo becomes thin.”do  you have the source?

[Abdullah]

As Graillotion said HEC is very popular for this purpose.

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

A formaldehyde releaser with 2/1 Methyl/Propyl was the classic preservative combination for emulsions for 30 years. Combine with a solvent like prop glycol or in heated water phase - not in oil phase.  Partitioning can be an issue and should be addressed.

Does Paraben need to be heated to dissolve in water?

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis parabens are not very water soluble. If we use 0.2% methyl Paraben & 0.1% propyl Paraben with phenoxyethanol in emulsion or water only products, how can we keep the parabens in water phase?