[Abdullah]

Gums like xanthan, guar or HPMC are very compatible with NACL.

[Abdullah]

For glucoside i was talking about coco or lauryl glucoside.

[Abdullah]

saeedulfat said:

Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?

You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL. 

Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve. 

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

But, is it really necessary? If you put the paste into water and maybe heat it a little, doesn’t it turn into thin solution quickly? 
(Just guessing, I’ve never worked with it). For me you are the SLS and SLES expert  

No it is not necessary. 
If you don’t use high shear or heat, this is one another option to make the process easier. It works better in products that need more NACL and less SLES. 

[Abdullah]

Add CAPB and NACL

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

I don’t think you need salt to get SLES dissolved? At least I have never heard of it.

The final pH is 6? Ok, you are facing another possible problem - microbial contamination. Even though you are using probably 400% of recommended input of Sodium Benzoate, it won’t work as it needs low pH (<5). It is also known to be quite irritating (even at 0.3%). You need to add some Bactericidal, such as DMDM Hydantoin. 

Mixing high amount of salt reduces the viscosity of SLES paste so it will become easier yo work with.

[Abdullah]

Abdullah said:

@Bill_Togewhat percentage of total surfactant should be sodium cocoyl glutamate at least to be able to notice the skin feel? 

What percentage of total surfactant should be sodium cocoyl glutamate at least to be able to notice the skin feel? 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

Non ionic helps stabilize ionic emulsions. Because of ionic charge, ionic emulsifiers cannot grow big micelles, and non ionic surfactants help reduce repulsion between charged head groups.

1. Doesn’t more repulsion between charged head groups mean more stability?

2. Do big micceles mean more stability?

3. With Behentrimonium chloride hair conditioner for example, if we use fatty alcohol or glyceryl stearate, don’t they function as non-ionic surfactant and stabilize it?

4. In conditioner, will adding some alkyl Glucoside or CAPB increase stability? 
If not, why not?
They are non-ionic, they increase micceles size & they reduce repulsion too.

[Abdullah]

You said your viscosity is lost after several months. It viscosity ok at first? 

If yes, heat some product that has enough viscosity slowly to evaporate some water and see if viscosity increase or decrease.

If viscosity decreased it means you have too much salt as Paprik said and also water is evaporating from your final package.

[Abdullah]

@Bill_Togewhat percentage of total surfactant should be sodium cocoyl glutamate at least to be able to notice the skin feel? 

[Abdullah]

Bill_Toge said:

Abdullah said:

By methocel, do you mean Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose or something else? 
Can you write the inci name please.

a high-viscosity grade of hydroxypropyl methylcellulose

Thanks

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish Just to contribute on the topic, cationic polymers make anionic cleansers milder by reducing the amount of single anionics, promoting micelle formation. This can also be done by CAPB, so increasing the level of CAPB and reducing the anionic can also work.

Does other polymers like xanthan gum also have any effect on mildness or single anionics?

[Abdullah]

That depends on what type of product are you making, what features other than thickening do you want from your thickener and, what type of thickener is easier for you to work with, what price and other factors. 

For cleansing products i prefer NACL and xanthan gum because they are inexpensive, i have them available anyway and i have no problem in working with these too. 

[Abdullah]

zetein said:

https://patents.google.com/patent/JP6563191B2/en

How to download it in English? 

[Abdullah]

Of course some ionic surfactants help stability because of charge. 

Are you talking about Cetearyl alcohol + Ceteareth 20 or ceteareth 2 or so + Ceteareth 20 to go for HLB counting method? 

[Abdullah]

What is the pH of product, percentage of HYDROXYACETOPHENONE、GLYCERIN、1,2-HEXANEDIOL, METHYLPROPANEDIOL、BUTYLENE GLYCOL, names of those other extracts and package type?

If pH is ≤5 and these ingredient in high amount and good package that may be enough preservative. 

Wait for experts like PhilGeis to give you better comments. 

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

1. Non-ionic helps with building viscosity and mildness to the product. Customers usually like thick product, they think it is a sign of well performing product. 
2. Definitely high HLB, it is for better wash off.

Thanks. That is good because i thought there is non-ionic surfactant is needed for stability purpose. 

[Abdullah]

@Bill_Toge thanks 

Should i use PEG-8 olive glycerides with deposition aid like cationic guar or if used alone can also improve skin feel.

By methocel, do you mean Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose or something else? 
Can you write the inci name please.

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt thanks 

Does this redeposition happen during washing washing with hard water or rinsing with hard water? 

Water hardness here is around 700 TDS. During shampooing, 3g for men and 15g shampoo for women creates enough foam. 
What percentage of EDTA in shampoo enough for this purpose? 
I am using 0.1% tetrasodium EDTA currently. 

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

@Abdullah - Yes. I just don’t know what that would be.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt just to know, the molar ratio for high/low HLB surfactant should be between 1:1-1:6 to make LGN. How do you count the molecular weight of GMS when glyceryl mono stearate is 40% or 90% in GMS product? 

For example

GMS is 358.563 g/mol
GDS is 625.02 g/mol

GMS that we use is not 100% GMS. It has glyceryl distearate too.
If you use 1% GMS product that has 40% GMS in it, will you consider molecular weight of this 1% GMS for LGN
As 358.563 g/mol

As 500.512 g/mol which is sum of 40% mono & 60% di stearate
Or as 143.4252 g/mol which you count only 40% mono part and don’t count distearate at all?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Most structured cosmetic emulsions now have a lamellar gel network. Unfortunately (because not everyone has access to the equipment) the only way to really know if you got one is through x-ray diffraction. 

@ketchito by equipments, do you mean equipments to make LGN or equipments to check if it is made?
If you mean equipments to make LGN, what are those equipments? 

[Abdullah]

@Pharma there are some informations that show adding fatty alcohol improves combing. 

Like this chart about Behenamidopropyl dimethylamine. 
It shows 1% BAPDMA+ 3% fatty alcohol has almost the same combing force reduction as 2% BAPDMA+ 2% fatty alcohol.
Any comments on this? 

[Abdullah]

@Perry is there any ratio glycerin/water above which we can feel heat or when the heat is more than 50% we will feel heat? 

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

Yes.

Thanks