[Abdullah]

ariepfadli said:

STPP work as water hardness reducer by capture calcium and magnesium ion, to avoid reacting with your surfactant, so it’s not anti redeposition, just make to sure your surfactant can works
more hard water more STPP,
Just try maximum combination and you can see effectiveness by how much foam can be formed during application, more foam indicate more surfactant still works

STPP is soluble up to 14% in water. Do you suggest i use 14% STPP?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah The question would be why do you need to add them. If it’s for softness (on hands I believe), there are other ingredients. If it’s for foaming or detergency, there are other more suitable polymers as well that do nos deposit as much.

The main purpose is to make the dishwasher milder for hands. 

Without a deposition aid, will there be any benefit of using other ingredients for hand softness?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

Abdullah said:

ketchito said:

@GeorgeBenson Hydroxysultaines are very beautiful molecules: for the anionic part of the molecule, they have a sulfonate group (as any other high foaming anionic surfactant), but the hydroxyl group next to it can hydrogen bond with one of the oxygens, reducing charge density and making the molecule milder. Then you have the cationic nitrogen that changes how the molecule behaves when interacting with anionic surfactants (same as what CAPB does). 

So, when used alone I’d say CAP Hydroxysultaine is almost as mild as CAPB but more foamy. This is more evident when you pair them with an anionic surfactant. The downside with CAP Hydroxysultaine is that it impairs coacervate formation (but for a shower gel, that wouldn’t be an issue).

Why does it impair coacervate formation? 

Will lauryl hydroxysultaine also impair coacervate formation? 

In my experience if we replace CAPB with lauryl hydroxysultaine the conditioning effect on hair improves. 

@Abdullah Our ability to “measure” things is always limited and biased (that’s why for example, there are blinded studies and even double blinded, to remove any bias also from the researcher). If you want to compare conditioning from a cleansing formula, you could start by doing a coacervation (dilution) test.

But I don’t know how to perform a coacervation test?

Can you help? 

[Abdullah]

ariepfadli said:

See common technical sheet of wash machine energy rates or water selector level that you used during washing

Couldn’t find this data on technical sheet.

I cant find water selector level. Where should I look for it?

[Abdullah]

ariepfadli said:

Check 

Critical Micelle Concentration (CMC)

 of each surfactant that you used in formulation then multiply with 4, that minimum concentration your detergent for slightly to moderate dirt on the cloth, or multiply with 6 up to 8 for highly dirty cloth. Don’t forget to reduce active  surfactant availability based on hardness level water do you used

The problem is i have no idea with how much water it gets diluted during washing process in front door automatic machine. 

Any idea how to find it out?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@GeorgeBenson Hydroxysultaines are very beautiful molecules: for the anionic part of the molecule, they have a sulfonate group (as any other high foaming anionic surfactant), but the hydroxyl group next to it can hydrogen bond with one of the oxygens, reducing charge density and making the molecule milder. Then you have the cationic nitrogen that changes how the molecule behaves when interacting with anionic surfactants (same as what CAPB does). 

So, when used alone I’d say CAP Hydroxysultaine is almost as mild as CAPB but more foamy. This is more evident when you pair them with an anionic surfactant. The downside with CAP Hydroxysultaine is that it impairs coacervate formation (but for a shower gel, that wouldn’t be an issue).

Why does it impair coacervate formation? 

Will lauryl hydroxysultaine also impair coacervate formation? 

In my experience if we replace CAPB with lauryl hydroxysultaine the conditioning effect on hair improves. 

[Abdullah]

Clear cationic guar is 2 or 3 times more expensive that regular cationic guar. Keep that in mind. 

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt what about 1:1 ratio? 
Will it work even better than 2:1 or the sweet spot is 2:1?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Formula B foams more both for having a higher anionic level (as well as total surfactant level), and for having a mixture of SLES and LABSA. It also probably has better detergency.

EMPA soiled fabrics are standard soils used by the industry to evaluate the performance of laundry detergents vs different type of soils (https://www.mrpltd.com/html/empa_soiled_fabrics.html).

Thanks 

In this coding for example 101, does it mean we should put 90g soil in 1 m2 fabric or 90g detergent in 1 m2 soiled fabric? 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

As ketchita said, and consider in context. Are these both for machine use?  HE?
Hard water of geography of sale?

Formula B is very popular here. It is being sold by the name of laundry vaseline. 

They are both being used for machine and hand wash but not HE as HE machines are not common here. 

Water is extremely hard. The TDS of water is ≥700.

[Abdullah]

chemicalmatt said:

@Abdullah.  A ratio of 2:1 SLES: CAPB will work better at coacervation and dilution-deposition of the silicone and cationic guar combination. Adjust accordingly. I have never seen any good results with dilution-deposition onto hair with the APGs. I would leave it out of this project altogether. The CAPB will remove deposits just fine by itself.

chemicalmatt said:

@Abdullah.  A ratio of 2:1 SLES: CAPB will work better at coacervation and dilution-deposition of the silicone and cationic guar combination. Adjust accordingly. I have never seen any good results with dilution-deposition onto hair with the APGs. I would leave it out of this project altogether. The CAPB will remove deposits just fine by itself.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Have you test both products using something like EMPA soiled fabrics, to see the performance vs different type of soils? I’d start by doing that.

No i haven’t. 

I have just used them, A has little foam and B has very high amount of foam.

What is EMPA?

[Abdullah]

RobboAU said:

The ABS numbers are a measure of how much light with a wavelength of 500 nm is absorbed by the sample. 

I’m assuming that sebum oil has particular carbon chemistry that absorbs light in the 500 nm region. The sample that absorbs more light therefore has more of the absorbing compound, which we are lead to believe is sebum.

Without knowing a lot more about emulsion science and the details of the test, I remain skeptical that the graph actually demonstrates that LHS has indeed emulsified more sebum than CAPB in an identical situation.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah That chart is extremely missleading. First, you’re not comparing the sultaine va CAPB, but each mixed with SLES (they clearly interact differently with SLES). Then, I wouldn’t buy that SLES/CAPB is similar (or even slightly “less emulsifying”) to SLES alone, which contradicts the whole scientific literature and practical experience. 

Thanks 

I don’t even understand the chart. Can you explain it a bit to me. 

Is numbers in flat line like 0.04 and 0.05 the percentage of sebum in this test? 

And what does those ABS numbers mean?

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

Is it the smell of a non-castrated male, of wet fur, sweaty, or other? Depending where you live (indoors or warm country), it might have dense and insulating winter fur and therefore have too hot for the climate .

Washing a cat or dog once a month isn’t an issue. Personally and after reading a bunch of pet shampoo labels, I feel more comfortable using baby shampoo for my dogs than 90% of the pet products.

Using proper, good food and supplements (which is easier done with dogs than cats, I admit) can have a tremendous effect on scent.

Yes it is non castrated male. This happened last year which was his first winter. 

I don’t remember the details much. Just know the smell was not pleasant. 
I will see what happens this winter. 

[Abdullah]

Syl said:

If you have a non castrated male, they can smell bad when go out in the rain, but it eventually goes away when dry because they self groom.  If you wash your cat regularly they will become distant. It should be a last resort, if healthy they should not need a bath.

Yes it is non castrated male.

[Abdullah]

Microformulation said:

Ask a Veterinarian. Probably not a Chemistry question nor the most effective forum for such questions.

Thanks 
I did ask and they suggested to wash it with dog shampoo wich costs 4 Time more than pantene shampoo here. 

As some other people here also have cats i thought i ask.

[Abdullah]

I don’t know about make up removal but in Shampoo it is usually 0.2-0.5% when diluted.

[Abdullah]

Fekher said:

@MarkBroussard 1% to 2% as actif mater? 

In my opinion If you don’t dilute it with water, 2% active surfactant is too strong. 

[Abdullah]

ozgirl said:

Have a search for Ernest W Flick’s Advanced Cleaning Product Formulations books as they contains lots of basic cleaning product formulations from lots of suppliers. You can usually find a free pdf copy if you can’t access the original books. It can give you guidance of concentrations of standard ingredients by looking at other formulations.

Thanks a lot ????

[Abdullah]

Lab said:

Hi!

The value in Kg is always on dry clothes, so an 8Kg washing machine can fit up to 8Kg of dry clothes. Different fabrics and types of clothing (bath, bed, cloths) will weigh in different ways and have different configurations in there taking up more or less space.

The indicator in Kg is the maximum that the washing machine can support, but if you can’t put more pieces… then you’ve reached the space limit, not the volume it can support. Normally filling 2/3 of the capacity by volume ensures a quality wash. Forcing too much weight can generate overload and compromise the motor.

Also, manufacturers don’t usually guarantee that the washer, operating at its maximum (8Kg in this case), will perform at its best either - sometimes less is more!

Thanks

[Abdullah]

Fekher said:

@Abdullah I guess the capacity of clothes with water can put it to the laundry machine. 

Thanks

[Abdullah]

chemicalmatt said:

Too harsh for shampoo and personal care. Also not very efficient metal chelation (K-value) at acidic pH.

Got it 

Thanks

[Abdullah]

chemicalmatt said:

I’d add 2.0% or so. It will bump up your pH to 12 or so, but also factor into detergency too. 

Thanks 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Can’t answer that question but there are EDTA methods for determining hardness - perhaps execute with reverse intent.

I have TDS meter. Isn’t that accurate to determine water hardness?