-
Was there something wrong with the preservative? Should I sue?
-
Thanks for the rundown @GabyD. Very interesting. It is a useful lesson for future product formulators & marketers.
A few lesson I take from this…
1. Always run stability (including PET) tests on the final formula & the first production run!
2. Unless you have a lot of experience and knowledge, stick with parabens and formaldehyde donors. These preservatives are tried-and-true & also safe.
3. Don’t let your client dictate your preservative system without transferring the risk of microbial failure onto them.
4. Be weary of cosmetic formulators or other “experts” who are good on Instagram. They likely spend more time on social media than on keeping up with formulating.
-
Thanks Perry. I have learned A LOT from this experience. I just need to find a way to come out of it. I am not sure what to do now. The first company, the one who demanded we use a natural preservative, are asking for their money back. They paid a $10k deposit. I have spent $16k on formulators, ingredients, etc. I just don’t know what to do.
-
It does not appear that you have any options other than to refund the money. Ultimately, the manufacturer of a product is solely responsible for ensuring their products meet the expectations of the end client and is safe for use by consumers. Since you did the manufacturing yourself, that would be you.
It’s a tough lesson to learn, but you simply have to run PCT on all products that go to manufacturing. I’m sure the supplier of the preservative thought a pH of 5.8 would be fine and told you so in good faith, but they should also have suggested you run a PCT or at a minimum a microbial plate test prior to shipping any product to customers and/or you should have known to take this precaution on your own.
I’ll add to Perry’s list:
(5) Don’t ever put Lecithin in a product unless you have absolutely no choice.
-
This is also a very good lesson for people who do not have the technical background and/or manufacturing experience who think they can make commercial batches of product on their own.
When a potential client tells me they are intending to “self-manufacture” the products I develop for them as opposed to working through a contract manufacturer, I immediately turn down the business.
All it takes is one or two experiences with this and any chemist can tell you … the amount of the chemists’ time & energy that gets burnt up with incessant questions and frantic phone calls from such a client makes it such that you could never even come out financially break-even on this kind of arrangement, much less make a profit.
-
MarkBroussard said:When a potential client tells me they are intending to “self-manufacture” the products I develop for them as opposed to working through a contract manufacturer, I immediately turn down the business.I agree 100%.
-
Sadly Mark, I think you’re right. Given that I have invested everything I had into this business I probably have no choice but to sell up.
Thanks for all your help, I wish I had found this site earlier.
-
@Mark, I would agree with you in theory. I think you are in the US where things are better. I am in Australia where getting anything done is a nightmare. I have been let down so many times which is why I ended up doing it myself!
-
I have an update: the manufacturers of the preservative have invited me in for a meeting to talk about a way forward. They have offered their services to get the formula right, which is very generous of them. At last, I see some light at the end of the tunnel. With their expertise, I should have a product that is safe.
By the way, this…
(5) Don’t ever put Lecithin in a product unless you have absolutely no choice.
… has to be the best advice I have ever received. Just highlighting it in case it helps anyone else. I will let you know how I get on at the manufacturers. Thanks for all your help and support, it is much appreciated.Just to add, please go easy on small businesses such as mine. We don’t all have big budgets to outsource everything. We are just doing our best, some of us to support a family, as I am.
-
Hmm, I’ve personally never been a fan of lecithin, but the boss has it in nearly all his formulations at 0.5-1% that I make.
-
This is really heartbreaking to read this. I am just shocked that you paid to professional formulators for this formula. When I just saw it, I thought it’s a hobbyist formula from Etsy… I really wish you don’t have to sell your business and manage to get out of it. Good luck.
-
@ngarayeva001 Thanks, that’s very kind of you to say. Is the formula really that bad 😮 ?
-
The formula is generic … it’s not really a moisturizer and it does not appear to be designed to have any particular effect. So, yes, it kind of does look like a homecrafter’s formula on Etsy. What specifically are you intending this formula to be marketed as … a moisturizer, a body cream?
The good news is that you were able to get two customers to buy it, so don’t fret too much about it. But, you might want to consider adding some functional ingredients unless your intention all along was to make a basic body cream, in which case you’re fine with the formula as is.
-
I don’t think you can sue the preservative manufacturers
I doubt you can even get your money back, since the product wasn’t defective, just improperly used.Next time do some challenge testing.
Better yet, check preservative MICs Minimum Inhibitory Concentrations and you’ll see that they are almost guaranteed to fail challenge testing, unless you use huge amounts of them.You can try parabens below the EU limits (methylparaben 0.4%, propylparaben 0.14%) used at 75-90% of that limits and they work so much better.
I still have to see a single product to fail challenge testing with that (but we don’t add natural or hard to preserve products)
Add some EDTA 0.1% if you want.
Paraben scaremongers can GTHO Get The Hell Out. -
@Gunther, I agree with you, and the first thing that comes to my mind when I see such formulas is to say “please just add bloody parabens!!”. But in many cases it’s not an option because the client won’t pay for it.
-
I would advise anyone looking for a “natural” type preservative system and can afford to buy a 25Kg pail to take a look at Spectrastat by Inolex. We changed from parabens to that, three years or more ago, and have samples in pots still on the shelf from that time with no apparent preservative issues. I’ve recently been experimenting with KEM NAT and so far have had no issues with that either; and I have a LOT of organic material in our creams and gels, some are 50% aloe vera for instance.
-
Hi Gaby. Hope you found a way forward, how stressful for you. I’ve also worked with a chemist who started going AWOL after the first few months. I would be promised new samples in the post but 3 months later, no samples and no response. Plenty of Instagram and blog posts though. Repeat about 4 x. I’m wondering if we have the same “Carol”. It’s cost me thousands more to get the formulation finished & passing tests via the manufacturers lab and it’s still not passing challenge tests. Process has taken 2 years so far and has put huge strain on my family as we took out a loan for r&d with no return so far and increasing costs. I realise this isn’t the same scale as yours but your story sounds familiar.
-
Hi @Betterusername, I am sorry to hear that you’ve had the same bad luck as us with formulators. It is soul destroying, isn’t it?
I had another bad experience with a contract manufacturer before I went to “Carol.” I paid them $3k to make a tan for us. They made a great sample, however they had used one wrong essential ingredient so I asked for another sample. Months went by. The chemist ignored all my communications. Then out of the blue after 6 or 7 months I got an email from the company telling me that the chemist had left the company but not to worry - they had employed another genius chemist by the name of T.S. (preserving her anonymity here). They told me she had years of experience and would look after our case.
I went straight onto Linkedin and found her, but discovered that she was in fact just an admin person who they had promoted to Head Chemist. She hadn’t even been to university, let alone got any kind of chemistry degree.
So for those of you who question why unqualified people like myself end up doing our own formulating, this is why. I am sure things are better in the US. Alas, some of us are in the backwaters of countries like Australia where it is impossible to get anything done properly.
-
Why do you not just hire competent, professional chemist(s) who are members of the Society Of Cosmetic Chemists?
You have to be credentialed to be accepted into SCC, so an organization has already done the credential screening for you … SCC memberships does not mean the individual will be a talented chemist or have great business ethics, but at least you know they are an actual chemist.
Many of us service clients on a global basis and the only real drawbacks are the time/expense of shipping samples through customs and time differentials for communications. But, other than that … it makes no difference what country you are located in. Now, having your product manufactured is another matter as you will want to do that in-country.
I’m curious if this “Carol” is an actual chemist or a poser?
-
Here you go:
-
@MarkBroussard I just wish I had found this website 2 years ago. “Carol” is a qualified chemist. She also teaches several cosmetic chemistry courses and is a member of several professional organisations here in Australia.
Before “Carol”, I was using another formulator, Rita, who had come highly recommended. I asked her to make us a foaming tan (this was before we went organic and palm oil-free). She made it within a few days and it was great! It sold out very quickly so I asked her to make some more. She told me I had to drive to her lab to deliver some DHA for the tan. It was the first day of my new (day) job, but I risked it to take the DHA to her. That was the last I heard from her. I called and emailed, left messages through mutual contacts… nothing. I didn’t even get my DHA back.
And before her there was Diane. Again, very keen. Long career with L’Oreal. I found her details on a professional website. After the initial few emails we arranged to meet. She didn’t turn up. Full of apologies, arranged to meet again, but didn’t turn up and I never heard from her again.
-
Pretty sure Carol is an actual chemist and member of SCC. Formulations were good, was really happy with all the science, however professionalism and communication not so much. If she doesn’t like what you’re asking for as a client, she seems more likely to make an unflattering public post about it than have a conversation with you directly. It’s all quite problematic and having only worked in a collaborative, professional environment, not something I knew how to navigate at all. Before Carol I almost hired someone who’s visible online and a member of the SCC and associated with a well known chemist. Turns out she’d faked her experience so that wouldn’t have gone well either. The problem is that people don’t generally name their chemists/labs, there’s no reviews or anything so no accountability. My manufacturer are brilliant so far which is a saving grace and I have recommendations for others who I’m looking forward to working with. I’m sure all you on here are wonderful though, we seem to have had bad luck.
-
Also, based on what @GabyD is saying and her region, I suspect my Carol and hers may well be the same.
-
Pity … sorry to hear you both had this bad experience.
-
This is one of the reasons I have a hard time recommending formulators or even contract manufacturers.
Providing a service like formulation requires more than knowledge of how to formulate. It also requires some interpersonal skills, business skills and ethics. Just because someone can whip up a good formulation, doesn’t mean they’ll do a good job for everyone.
I’d still recommend working with a formulator who has a science background over one who doesn’t. But that’s never a guarantee.
-
Having a science background certainly helps understanding why things happen or don’t work out but cosmetic chemistry is most of all an empirical science, not an exact one. Having a degree in chemistry, pharmacy or whatever doesn’t make you a good formulator, let alone a good business man/woman (and, I speak from experience, it’s more likely to drive someone socially incompetent). There is no official degree or qualification for cosmetic chemists, it’s “just” a job/skill people have and that’s very hard to judge at a distance. These days, it’s often the ones with the most prominent internet presence who get the most attention but that tells you only one thing and one thing only: They’re hanging out too much on the internet and might not have the time for formulating (reminds me that I should spend more time with my mortar and pestle
).
Log in to reply.
