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Brands do like to release a lot of new products, so no ingredients that are particularly effective for the under eye area?

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Thanks for the feedback!

Sendt PO with the old pricing, wasn’t told pricing had changed. 2 months later after having delivered all materials to CM and them making the batch, they send me an invoice with new pricing.

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Thanks, the I think the blends of acids and emulsifier are prime candidates to test then, perhaps starting with the acids.

Since dimethicone is so broadly used I doubt it is it.

pH is around 6.

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Thanks, which smart line from lubrizol @DAS?

Peg-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate might also be a good choice here. HEC and HPMC hasn’t worked well in the past, makes a very granular solution.

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Floratech claims that their their Moringa butter performs about equally to petrolatum (2% being 10% away from 5% petrolatum at reducing TEWL 2 hrs post a SLS challenge), their Jojobaesters 60 is even closer.

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Thanks Mark, yes I’ve actually tried their Moringa Butter. It might be close, but it’s more than twice as hard to apply being near solid, not sure it retains its performance diluting it in a formula. Plus it’s quite expensive.

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@Perry thanks for the input, interesting to know that some lawyers are suing due to false organic claims! Hopefully this doesn’t apply to mentioning that some ingredients are organic  :# 
Doesn’t seem like it’s a risky decision me, if it’s at the level of risk as being struck by lightning. Although if you’re making an inherently risky product it seems more worthwhile - doubt you’d get sued for selling petrolatum.

@Gunther if you’re a sole formulator maybe $500/yr a small business maybe $1500 minimum. Coverage is complicated, but up to a million or two total.

Another pertinent question here: If you did get sued and suddenly owed more than you could pay, does that mean your business is automatically bankrupt? I don’t think so although you could probably lose it’s liquid assets fast.

I don’t think the question of whether to get insurance or not is black and white, but it’s value goes up with revenue x risk factor of products. It’s an interesting question for sole formulators and small businesses.

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So Mark you’ve never heard of it happening, and Perry? 

It seems like you are in the opposite camp trying to justify having insurance as you currently do pay for it and assuming I don’t have it (I do). But everyone will try to sell you insurance for everything in the US, so it’s reasonable to evaluate the actual risk, especially if you’re small/just starting out etc.

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All the products have disclaimers and advise patch testing, but who knows what protection that gives. OTC products have FDA mandated warnings as well.

Thing is I’ve never heard of any small biz selling relatively low risk products getting sued so I wonder if this insurance thing really is necessary. I’ve heard of customers getting allergic reactions, but people have been happy to get their dermatologist visit covered. So I’m asking here to see if there are any “case studies”.

It doesn’t make sense to sue a small business like this as you’re likely to get stuck with a lawyers bill and no money. You don’t get ruined if there’s not anything to ruin and it’s a limited liability company.

For personal formulators you can get very cheap insurance, but it’s a bit more for businesses starting at around $1400 regardless of sales numbers.

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Thanks em88, since my batch size is typically 400 ml I’m not terribly concerned with wattage, but good to keep in mind.

@Bill_Toge know any homogenizers that can also be used as stirrers that can be found used/new for less than $500 in EU? 

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Ruher works! Thanks DAS. I actually got a 80 mm paint stirrer that will do the job for now.

em88, it’s great for gentle mixing during cooldown of liquid crystal emulsifier emulsions, particularly thicker ones.

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Other changes

Move dimethicone and the preservatives to the heated oil phase (both should tolerate 70C). Move Niacianmide to B2 (it’s also ok with 70C). 

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Thanks Bill! I was not aware about xanthan gum being incompatible, will exclude, this is my first time testing BTMS so not surprised I’m missing something. 

I’ve seen glyceryl stearate used in similar formulas, I guess it’s a good candidate to test with and without, I agree it should work fine without it.

Think excluding those two + increasing mixing time during emulsification and cooldown will do the trick or does it likely need more BTMS?

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Also FYI if you want to post formulas it works fine to copy directly from google sheets.

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Did you try slow mixing for an extended period of time? Like 400 rpm for 3 hours at rt? Some liquid crystal emulsifiers can take a while to form the right lamellar structure. 

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Here’s our last discussion on the subject: https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1223/concealer-how-to-give-a-liquid-concealer-more-staying-power#latest 

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@Mark - thanks! Appreciate it. I have a friend who was thinking about it for sunscreen use but I couldn’t find any convincing data.

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@mark: “1. The Topical dosage is 25-50mg per dose. This is established in several British studies and is the level that topicals strive for in WA, OR, CO and CA. “

Links? 

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L’oreal isn’t making customized to the person products as much as customized to groups of people, that’s why I wanted clarification.

IMO It doesn’t make sense to make any blanket conclusions about customized skincare, there are too many ways to go about it - you need to critique are the specific approaches, what data is gathered and how it’s used to customize a formula.
Like you I haven’t seen anything I’m convinced work better than picking the right standard product, but not ruling out it could work, I think it’s fairly easy to hypothesize how it could work on a deeper level than questionnaires. E.g:

1. It’s discovered that one strain of p.acnes is a causative agent in acne, you could send in a skin swab and have it analyzed, then get a treatment targeting that strain should you be positive of it, or just the best bet generic treatment if not.

2. It’s proven that people accumulate different levels or ratios of damaged molecules in the skin as they age, e.g. glycated collagen vs reduced fibroblast spreading. A non-invasive spectroscopy method is developed to measure this and you could designe mixture of actives is optimized to fit that persons skin aging profile, maximizing efficacy whilst minimizing side-effects.

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What are you asking exactly Perry? Yes it can clearly work if emulating the same questionnaire a dermatologist would. E.g. you reacted poorly to salicylic acid in the past, don’t add that to the formula.
Do you have greasy skin, don’t use a lot of oils, dry skin? More oils.
Are you over 30 and don’t want wrinkles? Add retinol. This is what L’oreal is doing and it works. 

But It doesn’t work much better than a well formulated multi functional formula, and there’s a lot more friction in the transaction than clicking BUY NOW so I don’t see a huge market there yet.

If you’re asking if they can analyze the molecular structure of the skin somehow and use that to tailor a formula the answer seems to be no, but in the future you could imagine being able to measure more stuff more easily opening up for more accurate skincare protocols and tracking your skin thickness, collagen, tewl etc more closely in response to functionals or applying functionals based on a molecular fingerprint of your skin. Still it wouldn’t be a mass market thing.

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I believe you can make formulas that work for 99% of people, and the last 1% are best helped by visiting dermatologists in person as the etiology of their skin problem could be complex, e.g. psoriasis caused by small intestinal overgrowth - yes that’s a common thing!

There’re different levels of customization

1. At the simplest level it’s stocking a few pre-made formulas, and based on questionnaires giving people the ones with the traits they desire/or are most likely to work for them. E.g. if you haven’t had luck with Benzoyl Peroxide for acne, try a salicylic acid formula. For example curology, bonus is that you get a derm to look at photos of your skin.

Age based customization, older people need more retinol (frequent) to keep their collagen synthesis up for instance.

2. Another level is customizing your own formula, this has been automated for vitamins, not cheap, but it works. Very small market still due to lack of knowledge and cost. L’oreal is doing this with some included or perhaps optional advice. Prosumers could adapt this is prices came down.

3. Customization based on empirical metrics such as skin microbiome - science isn’t there yet, could work in the future. 

1 and 2 are not really necessary IMO if you offer products with the best synergies of functionals that already work for 99%. 

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From what I’ve found Gracefruit has the best selection, but noone come close to either lotioncrafter or Makingcosmetics unfortunately. 

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Ruben: not sure, probably doesn’t matter, a one page COA of any third party analytics would likely work IMO. I don’t think they have experts looking at these.

David: The only GMP certificates that are valid are AFAIK ones provided by inspection services, these cost around $5000 and up and requires multi day inspection of the facility.

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@Doreen yes it’s only a part of the puzzle, but some non ionic emulsifiers are shown to increase TEWL “Unexpected skin barrier influence from nonionic emulsifiers”

Each piece counts, so if possible you want to optimize it.

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Could simply be a dosage question too or even purity between suppliers.