[Yulin]

I’m not writing here how it’s done because then someone can claim they’re an expert and just quote what I wrote when I go through the vetting process.  I’m sure there are some retinol experts here who know what I am referring to in regards to the available methods of stabilizing retinol and those are the people I am seeking to correspond with.  I already know what the methods are and the only way I can test their knowledge is to verify that they know the methods too so I don’t want to give it away. 

In regards to the legal aspect please stop commenting on that because you don’t know what you are talking about.  You don’t know the laws of every single country on this planet and they are widely varying in regards to issues like this so you can’t possibly make wide sweeping declarations like you keep doing.   

[Yulin]

Pharma said:

Just to understand you correctly:

You’re looking for a retinol expert (= a beauty expert, dermatologist, or plastic surgeon) who studied chemistry (not cosmetic chemistry but real chemistry) who writes an article on some commercial retinol products which do not contain ingredients to protect retinol from degradation (and wherein only a clairvoyant knows wheter or not and if, how badly, retinol actually degrades)… WTF!

What you need is a psychologist to explain why some people give a s#|+ whether or not their cosmetic ingredients degrade, a layer who explains why said people don’t have to because they can’t be sued neither for negligence nor ignorance, and a marketing person to elaborate on how easy it is to sell dirt for gold .

Thanks for your opinion.  Sorry if you are having a bad day.  There are a few ways to stabilize retinol that I think most retinol experts are aware of what they are.  We have verified that they work in our product line after doing intermittent testing over the past few years.  We just need someone with expert credentials and retinol experience to write an opinion. 

Sounds like you are referring just to US law in regards to the legal aspect - but actually outside of the US many countries have much stronger consumer protection and competition laws that make it very easy to sue for damages if you either purchased a product that does not contain what it says it does or if you are competing in the marketplace against a product that does not contain what it says it does.  Also the losing side usually has to pay the legal fees and damages for testing fees and personal time spent on the case so there isn’t any downside to pursuing legal action.  

[Yulin]

Ok thanks.  We sourced the raw materials for some liposomes that we purchase premade and realized it’s about 8x cheaper if we were able to make them ourselves.  Sounds like it may be a massive headache though. 

[Yulin]

Thanks.  So extrusion is a reliable process?  We are concerned about stability of this particular ingredient that we are encapsulating so we want to make sure that whatever process we use is just as good as what a larger scale manufacturer would use.  

[Yulin]

Thanks these sound promising.  I define small batch as 1-5kg.  These will work at that scale?

[Yulin]

@ketchito thank you!  I will have the lab try those methods.  

[Yulin]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.  This is a lot to think about.  I may need to do a complete reformulation.  I think it may be too difficult to pinpoint the issue considering the number of botanicals.   

[Yulin]

Thank you for the feedback! Noted on listed twice. Do you know what would be causing stickiness? 

[Yulin]

@letsalcido that makes sense.  We are going to try adding Emulgin SG to the formula to see if it disperses the jojoba to turn the serum back to creamy white.  

[Yulin]

@letsalcido the SAP we use is actually a fine white powder.  Is it supposed to be yellow?

[Yulin]

@Graillotion that’s a great idea that I should have thought of!  Will give it a try. 

[Yulin]

@letsalcido thanks for the link.  I’ll see if they have an HLB 10 liquid emulsifier at the manufacturing facility.  We have seen competing brands with similar xanthan formulas and no emulsifier which is what gave us confidence to try this.  I guess they are probably just selling separated formulas or have very low oil content.  

Yes you’re exactly right - it turns from cloudy white to translucent yellow.  

[Yulin]

@letsalcido sure here is the formula:

Water	90.340%
Hydroxyethylcellulose	0.380%
Xanthan Gum	0.430%
Hyalurosmooth	0.100%
MSM	1.000%
Aloe 200 X	0.300%
Jojoba Oil	0.700%
Vitamin E	0.950%
Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate	5.000%
Euxyl PE 9010	0.800%

[Yulin]

@letsalcido our manufacturer has a lot of things in stock but not polysorbate 80.  We have carbopol but that probably can’t be added post production, right?  Any other ideas?  

[Yulin]

@letsalcido thank you for this!  We were wondering how our competitors were just using xanthan for thickening.  I guess it must because their total oil content is probably lower.   We have already blended some of this formula - do you think we can add polysorbate 20 (we don’t have any 80) now to provide long term stability?

[Yulin]

I think these types of government positions are filled by people who weren’t able to make it in the private sector for whatever reason.  The gov pay is probably much  lower so the only reason to take that job would be if they couldn’t get a job at a private lab or if they like the extreme job security that the gov provides.  Then the result is that there are poorly qualified people that have a lot of power as in this case.  I won’t say which country it is besides it’s in Europe and they have a very high testing rate.  

We talked to a few different lawyers in that country and they said the only way to deal with it is to provide accredited testing that refutes their testing so that’s what we’re trying to figure out now.  Thanks for the suggestions.  I’ll talk with the labs about these possibilities.  

[Yulin]

Thanks for the suggestions.  We have to reduce our formulas down to one fatty acid because some countries do HPLC analytical testing on a regular basis and if you can’t prove that the ingredient list is in the correct order based on weight then they don’t allow you to sell there.  All the labs we talked to said that they can only quantify fatty acids correctly if there is just one present in the formula so we have to make some revisions.  They said lecithin and polysorbate 20 won’t interfere with their test.    

We had an issue where a government tested our cream and claimed that sunflower oil should actually be higher in the ingredient list but that’s just because their test added all the other fatty acids into the sunflower oil content.  Unfortunately there is no way for us to prove they are wrong without changing the formula.  

[Yulin]

Thank you!  I should have known carbomer would be an option.  I will look into Sepimax too.  I appreciate the help!

[Yulin]

Thanks everyone.  I’m really glad I posted because I hadn’t thought out the preservative system as thoroughly as you all.  This is very helpful.  I read through the reviews of the benchmark product online and there are some people who complained of rancid smell with units that were close to expiration so it definitely seems to be an issue with this formula.  

I am now much closer to matching texture, color and scent so I’m going to do some research on BHT and probably add some.  Thanks again!

[Yulin]

@MarkBroussard  thanks for confirming the oil content is ok.  That was one of my primary concerns.  I did switch to golden jojoba in my second test batch and achieved more yellow color but still pale compared to the benchmark.  The only thing I can think to do is add more retinol because it’s very yellow and also has the sweet scent so that must be what I’m missing. 

Great tip on the SAP - I didn’t think about that.  The SAP packaging I received from Making cosmetics says to keep it refrigerated so I should have made that connection with the phasing heat issue.  I’ll adjust accordingly. Thanks again.   

[Yulin]

Does the 5% sunflower oil seem high?  I know it tends to go rancid but it also seems like a high concentration. I just guessed 5% because of where it is listed in the benchmark LOI.  

[Yulin]

Thanks Perry - good idea.  I’ll simplify and see if I can get a closer match. 

[Yulin]

@ngarayeva001 Thank you very much for the reply!  Great advice already - I appreciate it.  My first test batch had a lower Xanthan concentration but it turned out really thin so I added more to thicken it up.  I will increase the 9010 concentration and buy some EDTA and BHT.  Here is the LOI as listed on the packaging of the benchmark:

Aqua

Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice (Organic Aloe)

Helianthus Annuus Seed Oil (Organic Sunflower)

Isopropyl Palmitate

Glyceryl Stearate SE

Cetyl Alcohol

Cassia Angustifolia Seed Polysaccharide

Stearic Acid

Glycerin

Simmondsia Chinensis Seed Oil (Organic Jojoba)

Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate (Vitamin C)

Butyrospermum Parkii Butter (Shea)

Retinol

Panthenol (Vitamin B5)

Tocopherol Acetate (Vitamin E)

Xanthan Gum

Polysorbate 20

Pentylene Glycol

Alcohol

Lecithin

Phenoxyethanol

Ethylhexylglycerin

Thanks again for your help