[tecnico3vinia]

evchem2 said:

amodimethicone is supposed to be better for damaged (color-treated) hair, as it can bind to the damaged sites more effectively than uncharged silicones

Thank you for heads up! I really like the effect that amodimethicone has on conditioners and leave-ins systems, so I’ll definetly try it in this shampoo for coloured hair. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Hi there! I’m also developing products for curly and coily hair. Some suggestions:

1. You can decrease the Panthenol and Glycerin. I would use 1-2% maximum of each one of them.

2. You already 2% percent of behentirmonium chloride and 1% of polyquaternium-10, so I wouldn’t use cetrimonium chloride. 

3. I would also decrease the oils concentration. Think about 1-2% each too.

4. I would decrease the essential oil concentration. Also ~1%.

Happy formulating!

[tecnico3vinia]

Yes, but you need to use cold processable ingredients. There’s some cold processable opacifiers available out there. Euperlan PK 3000 AM, by BASF is an option. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Lab said:

Very interesting!

I’ve never seen this kind of product before. Can you tell if this spider web effect has any functionality or is it just a visual appeal?

It can have some effect in the lubricity of the product but overall is just a visual/sensory appeal. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Microformulation said:

I created a product like this back in the early 2000s. Sadly, PEG-90M is needed if you want the best effect. Essential Ingredients even had a starting Formulation. It can be tricky in manufacturing. https://www.happi.com/contents/view_formulary/2009-03-01/spider-web-crme-wax/

Thank you so much for the heads up!

This is a very interesting starting formula. Hope I can get a sample of PEG-90M soon.

[tecnico3vinia]

Empress_Labs said:

Hello!
This type of product was popular in the UK in the mid-late 2000’s.   Styleze W-17 does have a spider-web effect but nowhere near as strong as PEG-90M. I don’t think you’d get ‘fibres’ as long as in the photo using PQ-55 alone, but if you combine it with PVP K-90, avoid Acrylate rheology modifiers and select your waxes and emulsifiers carefully you will get a good ‘spider-web’ or ‘fibre’ effect.
Good luck!

Hey! Thank you so much for your comment.

This is actually kinda funny. People in my country love products with this effect, but while I was searching for products with this same effect in europe/USA I couldnt find much stuff. 

I’m still trying to get PEG-90M or PEG-180M, but in the mean time I’ll try to develop something using some alternatives, as you pointed out. I think that maybe it won’t be as ‘fibery’ as the image that I attached, but I’ll try.

Kind regards

[tecnico3vinia]

Hi there!

What a coincidence! I’m searching for PEG-90M (or PEG-180M) to develop a hair mask with spider web effect. Unfortunately is being kinda hard to get a sample or to find a distributor that sells it in a small quantity. 

Anyways, I never worked with it but I was talking with a colleague the other day and she was saying that she worked with PEG-180M one time. In the lab it worked out perfectly (she just sprinkled it in the surface of the medium in the end of the process and then mixed it), but in the manufacturing process (large scale) it wouldn’t ‘dissolve’ in the medium. She then found out (from other colleague lol) that the best way to incorporate it (when used in large scale) would be to pre-disperse PEG-180M in some oil and then add it in the medium. She did that and it worked out perfectly fine. So, i suggest that you should try the same thing with PEG-90M!

Kind regards  

[tecnico3vinia]

chemicalmatt said:

@MarkBroussard errrr…that would be me, dude. Now I am outed! I’ll share with y’all my mentor here. I worked with and for Ali for many years. Nobody knows more about the chemistry. Chicago was once the Silicon Valley of African American haircare industry; not so much any more.

The Man of Science Who Revolutionised the Afro Hair Industry (blackbeautyandhair.com)

Thank you, Matt! That’s so cool! 

[tecnico3vinia]

MarkBroussard said:

@tecnico3vinia

Your best bet is to search the top performing and/or best-selling products for curly/afro hair and note the ingredients they use.  There is someone on the board, I forget who, unfortunately, who mentioned in the past that they have lots of experience formulating for curly/kinky hair.

Thank you, Mark! I already did an analysis of top performing/best selling products! Now I’m running some tests on the lab. It’s been fun 🙂

[tecnico3vinia]

em88 said:

At what temperature are you adding them?
I would decrease CDEA at 2-3%, and increase the quantity of PEG-150 Distearate to achieve the desired viscosity.

In RT temperature, since I don’t heat the system. I think that if I heat the system, it will help on the incorportation of Cocamide! I’ll definetly try it. Thank you. 🙂

[tecnico3vinia]

ketchito said:

@tecnico3vinia CDEA and CAPB are compatible. Perhaps your issue can be related to the kraft point of your formula. Are those number in your formula the order of additio (I hope not)? You are actually using way too much CDEA. Perhaps you could increase your PEG-150 or include a polymeric rheology modifier (like Chrotix Liquid). 

Thank you! I’ll test it again heating Cocamide DEA in water and increasing the PEG-150 Distearate! Hope it works! 🙂

[tecnico3vinia]

chemicalmatt said:

@tecnico3vinia Your’s is a good question and worthy of an answer. In the past I’ve heated the product to 10C above its solidification point and measured using a heated pycnometer, posting the specification as 0.### @ 60C.  The other means is to tare a graduate cylinder, melt the product, fill to over the 100ml mark, let cool to RT then carefully shave off excess until level at the mark. Weigh, then clean out and weigh water at the mark at RT, calculate SpG.  Any discrete container can be used for this too, (i.e. a Mason jar) just be sure you mark the same volume level for water and product.

Thank you so much, Matt. That was really helpful.

[tecnico3vinia]

Fekher said:

@tecnico3vinia as a reflection make the product in high purity Alcohol(wich has low density) determine the added volume wich is the volume of the solid then  Mesure the weight and that’s all. 

Thank you! I didn’t have no idea how to measure it. 

[tecnico3vinia]

michaelpolymer said:

probably cetyl alcohol doesnot has the oil binding ability. By the way , do you know the difference between microcristaline wax and ozokerite wax? Tks!

Thank you, Michael!

I unfortunately don’t know the difference between microcristaline wax and ozokerite since I don’t use it in my formulations. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Syl said:

I use some cetyl alcohol in my lip balm for slip, but I do not believe that it can replace wax as the main thickening ingredient.

I also don’t think it can replace the waxes and the maisn thickening agent. I have a client that want to use it as the sole thickening ingredient and it’s doing some tests, but I actually never tested it. 

[tecnico3vinia]

MarkBroussard said:

@tecnico3vinia

Try using Siligel

Thank you, Mark! I’ll try to request a sample of it. 

[tecnico3vinia]

ozgirl said:

At 3% Glycerin can also feel sticky. I would try reducing this first before you buy any new raw materials.

Great! I’ll test it. Thank you!

[tecnico3vinia]

Squinny said:

Instead of just Xanthan Gum why not buy a blend (INCI: Acacia Senegal Gum (and) Xanthan Gum) - it is more expensive but will last a long time if you are only using as a home formulator. Also depends on what viscosity you want for your formulation. Maybe do some research with something like thsi:
A REVIEW ON NATURAL GUMS AND THEIR USE AS PHARMACEUTICAL EXCIPIENTS | INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF PHARMACEUTICAL SCIENCES AND RESEARCH (ijpsr.com) ??

Yes, maybe using a blend can be an option! Thank you. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Jaycetowww said:

tecnico3vinia said:

Are you using ‘pure’ Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)? One thing about this form of Vitamin C is that it is highly unstable on aqueous medium, so it is very alike that the formulation will change it’s color.

Also, 32% of Vitamin C is a VERY high concentration. I bet you don’t need that much in a formula. I also think that 4% is a VERY high concentration of Vitamin E. Speaking of Vitamin E, what form are you using, tocopherol or tocopheryl acetate?

And you won’t use any preservative? 

I was thinking since I added an anti oxidant , preservatives won’t be needed 

Antioxidants and preservatives are different things. This is a very broad topic, but basically, preservatives are used to prevent the proliferation and growing of microoganisms. Antioxidants are used to prevent the oxidation of some components of the system. In combination, they both can extend the shelf life and stability of a cosmetic formulation, but yet they’re different things. 

I really suggest that you study these basic concepts of cosmetics formulation. It will make things easier for you

[tecnico3vinia]

Are you using ‘pure’ Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)? One thing about this form of Vitamin C is that it is highly unstable on aqueous medium, so it is very alike that the formulation will change it’s color.

Also, 32% of Vitamin C is a VERY high concentration. I bet you don’t need that much in a formula. I also think that 4% is a VERY high concentration of Vitamin E. Speaking of Vitamin E, what form are you using, tocopherol or tocopheryl acetate?

And you won’t use any preservative? 

[tecnico3vinia]

As Perry said, soap is old technology. People have been using it for ages, but now we have more advanced and sophisticated technology that allows the creation of products that are also more sophisticated and with better characteristics overall (e.g the sensory properties after washing the product).

Yes, in soap you can use different oils since every oil have different fatty acid profile and can influence the final product properties. Some oils influence the hardness, some the cleansing properties, some the mildness/afterfeel and so on. 

In the end of the day, there’s public for both type of products. Some will prefer soap and some will prefer products with synthetic surfactants. I prefer washes/shampoos with synthetic surfactants, but again, there’s public for the both type of products.

[tecnico3vinia]

You can slightly incease the SLS and Cocamidopropyl Betaine concentration to benefit from their synergy and ionic-thickening mechanism. You also can use Cocamide DEA to help increase the viscosity. Also, if the pH is more acidic, Cocamidopropyl Betaine tends to help more on the thickening. 

[tecnico3vinia]

evchem2 said:

We might need to hear more about your system to be most helpful. Can you at least list the other ingredients in your formula? Isoamyl laurate, triethyl citrate can help with tack. Is it actually tackiness  (that sticky feeling), can you describe the sensory feeling you are unhappy with more?

Thank you! It’s a very simple gel formulation consisting in water, glycerin (around 3%), xanthan gum (around 0.5 to 2%) and preservative. I’ll see if I can test the options that you pointed out. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Gordof said:

Some ingredients that can reduce Takines of Xanthan gum depending on formulation are
-Acacia Collagen (Lipoid)
-SUCCINOGLYCAN (Reozahn SH Solvey)
-As mentioned by Abdullah gum Arabic

Adding some Oils that have a good long time Spreading curve

Great, Gordof! I’ll definitely see if I can test these options. Thank you!

[tecnico3vinia]

Abdullah said:

Add some gum Arabic

Great! Thank you, Abdullah!