[suswang8]

Svemirska_baklava said:

So, 
In recent past I have tried numerous ”natural” preservation system ranging from Geogard 221, Biopein, Neopein, Suorapein (from BioBotanica), grapefruit seed extract, Leucidal, Silverion etc. I never had any accomplishment with these as phenoxyethanol proved to be superior to any of before mentioned supstances. 

Has anyone tried Geogard Ultra? 

What do you think about natural preservatives? Is there any that can reliably be used for vast application and are they really worth the trouble and extra money, mostly?

Have you had any success with using any, if so, can you describe it? What do you think is the future of using preservatives in cosmetics, as this topic tend to be mentioned more and more? 

Dr, Hauschka and Weleda, as examples, rely partially on using decent amounts of ethanol plus essential oil components like geraniol.  Cosphaderm also has a number of natural preservatives for you to look at, as well, such as magnolia extract.  Whether it is worth the trouble or expense to you is something that you would have to consider.  

[suswang8]

ethanol?

you can also try rice starch or “oat silk” (both available from SkinChakra), but I have not tried either one.

[suswang8]

mikeylamar said:

MarkBroussard said:

If you are going to be making Vitamin C serum weekly and using it within that week, you really don’t need to worry about stabilizer.  The Vitamin C won’t degrade that quickly to really affect the performance.

I heard on Perry’s podcast that all the vitamin c essentially degrades completely after 8 hours at room temperature.

As I plan on using it underneath my sunscreen, I’d prefer to add another water soluble antioxidant that will also make it more photostable too. 

Is this correct?

[suswang8]

Way too much rosemary.  I thought 0.1% is the recommendation?

[suswang8]

Thoughts on water that has been boiled and put through a Zero Water filter?

[suswang8]

@ccchem:
I would be interested in knowing what you learned about these two topics:

• Type of formulation; Polymeric, O/W emulsions, solution, etc.
• Choice of emulsifier

Unless I am mistaken, the only way one knows for certain what is penetrating the skin is through tests on cadaver skin or some sort of equivalent model, but this is quite a “black box” of a topic.  For example, I stumbled upon one recent journal article that was outside my comprehension but seemed to suggest that liposomes do not actually deliver ingredients through the epidermis, as many would have us believe.

[suswang8]

Hi, Rosa.

I’m not sure if I understand your goals, but you can try something like Ecogel or sclerotium gum (Amigum).  Both can accommodate up to 10% oils, I believe.  Ecogel is regarded as an emulsifier, but Amigum creates a suspension, from what I understand.  Another route is something like SymbioSolv, but that is a solubolizer (not an emulsifier).

[suswang8]

em88 said:

zetein said:

@em88

Using sugar alcohol to dissolve salicylic acid is quite novel. Would you mind sharing your experience?

It’s probably confusing. By sugar alcohol I mean polyalcohols such a glycerin, but also propandiol, butandiol and so on. I believe it’s understandable that blends of alcohols, polyalcohols and PEGs have better dissolving properties compared to each of them alone.
Thanks for pointing it out, and letting me explain it better. 

Salicylic acid is soluble in glycerin?  I had not heard this before.

[suswang8]

I don’t have experience, but there are a lot of derms/plastic surgeons recommending against using this class of products given potential negative side effects. 

[suswang8]

This one has 0.5% SA.  I think the answer is two-fold:

-1-  Each ingredient is difficult to work with, for different reasons, so using both in one formulation further complicates things.

-2-  What % of each would you be using?  If you were planning on say >10% ascorbic acid, then your product would be marketed for one particular function (anti-aging, antioxidant, etc.), and if you’re planning on a full 2% SA, then your product is most likely wanting to boast anti-blemish effects.  It might not be an easy “sell” to offer all of this in one item; if you look at the marketplace, consumers are usually asked to choose one or the other in a product:  antioxidant/anti-aging or anti-acne.  Stated otherwise, I cannot remember the last time I saw a product being promoted as both anti-aging and anti-acne.  What you are proposing would not be a bad idea, it would just be a question of how you would want to market the product. 

[suswang8]

Lots of threads on here and videos online on salicylic acid, but you won’t be able to do it without using ethanol or a glycol/solvent, or you would have to purchase a product like Curcylic™ 40.

[suswang8]

That is helpful.  Can I ask how small?  :o}.    (Either way, it’s probably too much for me.)

[suswang8]

sodium ascorbyl phosphate?

[suswang8]

I have to say that I went shopping for MAP and SAP recently and was amazed at the prices:  $21/oz, and from China, on Making Cosmetics.  Please post again if you end up finding a good supplier for small quantities.

[suswang8]

Question:
Does an emulsion help active ingredients penetrate any better into the skin than, say, an aqueous gel?  In other words, if you had 3% niacinamide in your typical emulsion vs the same 3% niacinamide in a lipid-free gel. 

[suswang8]

Sorry - Just to clarify:  I was not suggesting that someone just put almond oil on their skin and then go outside, knowing they are fully protected.

I said an “aspect of protection.”  I think there are various ways of looking at sun protection, one of which is through SPF, but that focuses purely on UVB radiation.

There are also these three studies, which suggest skin benefits of almond derivatives in human beings:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23892186/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33491323/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24113641/

I don’t have a vested interest one way or the other; I’m just saying that there is some evidence that almond oil might offer some benefits with respect to lessening sun damage.

[suswang8]

Please post full formula, otherwise I don’t think any experts will be able to help.

[suswang8]

Hi, @Pharma.

I am making a slightly different product (in this case, an AHA/BHA toner), but encountering the same issue with tea extract discoloring in just days.  I am keeping the product shielded from light, but I guess airless packaging is the only answer, or do you have another suggestion?  Should 0.25% ascorbic acid be sufficient?  Thank you.

66.6% brewed green tea (using de-ionized and freshly boiled water)
12% ethanol
5.6% glycolic acid
5.5% arginine
2% glycerin
2% butylene glycol
1.75% salicylic acid
0.85% sodium bicarbonate
0.65% citric acid
0.4% sodium phytate
0.25% ascorbic acid
pH 3.7
(no preservative added just yet as 12% ethanol and pH quite low, and only expecting 30 days shelf life for now) 

[suswang8]

Almond oil has been proven to offer an aspect of protection.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17348990/

[suswang8]

-1-  I agree with @ggpetrov that you will eventually need to get more specific about what you are looking for.  “No soaping” is a good start, but you will need to learn more about what specific attributes you want your product to have in terms of feel/appearance.

-2-  Even if we exclude the cetyl alcohol, it seems like you are using quite a bit of emulsifier there (5.5% for 15% oil).  I assume you already experimented with using less?

-3-  I have had 0 soaping with lysolecithin, but it is not an easy product to work with.

-4-  Next up on my list to try:  Imwitor 375 and maybe BergaMuls ET 1, which I just learned about from helenhelen.

[suswang8]

100pct agree with @Microformulation.  
You cannot expect to create a cosmetically elegant, stable, and effective zinc oxide sunscreen unless you are really an expert.  Please understand that there are established brands struggle to do this well.

[suswang8]

I’m doing low viscosity all the way, so eager to hear more about this.

On Olionatura, the English translation is, “With all emulsions, it makes sense to let them ‘ripen’ for 24 hours and stir them again well the next day, as they develop in consistency.”

[suswang8]

Novice here, but I want to add $0.02:

I was given the advice from here of adding in an extra 10pct as a ballpark for any hot process formulation to account for water loss due to evaporation. 

In general, I think this is good advice, and I have put it to use, however:  it really depends on how hot you are heating things and for how long.  I typically only add an additional 5pct if I’m only going to 60-65 C.  (For the above recipe, I would be surprised that only 10pct water is lost, especially if one is heating Phase B (water) to 90 C uncovered.) 

I really cannot tell from the above recipe if they are just mentioning that you will lose 10pct water, or if they are instructing you to add in an additional 10pct.  Perhaps someone else can say for certain.

[suswang8]

(Me suspects they will want to see your entire formula before opining on preservative and chelator adequacy . . . )

[suswang8]

Skinchakra is using 1388 in a recent lysolecithin-based formulation she posted about, and I’m 99% sure she does microbiology tests on all of these recipes.