SunilHiwarkat1965
Forum Replies Created
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@ketchito Thank you for assurance. It helps a lot to boost the moral.( specially when you make 24 versions & still struggling for perfect one.)
Being not from chemistry background; normally I follow 6:10 wt% ratio of BTAC to cetearyl alcohol. BTW; can molar molar ratio be calculated from molecular weights. I tried it once but was not sure. A small tutorial shall be highly appreciated.
Your comments:-@SunilHiwarkat1965 Silicones are actually emollients by function, and that Dove conditioners use a bit more than 4% of that Dimethicone/Amodimethicone/etc combo (probably made for them). Try one sample with 4% of Dimethicone, so you can feel the difference. If your lamellar network is robust enough, there won’t be any problem (the silicone would go either to the oils phase in case it’s compatible with it, or to a separate liquid silicone-only phase, stabilized by the lamellar arrangement).6ketchito said:
@SunilHiwarkat1965 This is Unilever’s patent for better reference: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015110511A1/en.You can add your dimethicone along with the rest of your oil phase at high temperature (usually above 75°C, since you have BTAC). Once in your formula, the silicone will decide either to stick with the rest of the oil phase, or migrate itself to a separate phase. It’s like a relative you bring home, either he chooses to stay with the other kids in the same room, or sneaks to its own room (and you’ll have to speep in the couch).
Silicones unlike natural oils don’t give a heavy greasy feel, and even less when delivered through an emulsion.
And one from chemicalmatt ” Slow mixing while slow cooling ” totally changed my perception towards Lamellar Gel Network processing.
I am sure I am just a few steps away from perfect prototype.Thank you once again for your kind help. Shall update shortly.
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@ketchito, I tried this batch on my hair. Spreadibility improved. For further improvements I may need to go over 4% Dimethicone say around 5%. as mentioned by you.I also wish to add Bis- Aminopropyl Dimethicone @ 2% which is not soluble in 350 cst Dimethicone but soluble in caprylyl Methicone.
So my concerns are —
1) will caprylyl Methicone drop the viscosity?
2) Shall I add Caprylyl Methicone + Bis -Aminopropyl Dimethicone + Dimethicone in the oil phase only.
3) Do I need to increase the % of BTAC & Cetearyl alcohol OR Shall I add ceterath 20 @ 0.5% for more viscosity/ stability.
I know I am bothering a lot to you. Extremely sorry for that.
Very eagerly waiting for your valuable suggestions. Thanks in advance. -
@ketchito yes sir. You were perfectly right. Viscosity did increase after 48 hrs. Amazing…. I salute to your practical knowledge.
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@ketchito,
Update:-
part 1) yes you were right; addition of 4% Dimethicone in one week old batch did improve spreadibility & conditioning. ( Batch viscosity didn’t change)Part 2) I made a fresh batch accommodating Dimethicone @ 4% in oil phase. • I didn’t observe structuring during processing & Viscosity was also bit less than batches without silicone in oil phase. Is it normal?
• After 24 hours there was little increase in viscosity but not up to the mark. 2ndly, batch not seems to be homogeneous.I shall try this batch tomorrow on my hair & share the feedback.
@Paprik cheers. Yes..There are quite few things in common we observe related to our field.
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@ketchito, Thank you very much . Your message dropped in just at very perfect moment. I was just about to rewrite the formula. Shall update hopefully by tomorrow. I have gone through the patent.It seems that they have adopted different method for preparation which is difficult to follow on production scale.
Any way I will follow regular SOP & let us see the end result. Appreciate your kind help. -
@ketchito, it just stuck to my mind. You said they must have added Dimethicon/ amodimethicone combo @ 4% which is 2nd ingredient on their ingredients list. That means they have more than 4% cetearyl alcohol in formula where as I have used 3.12% . So to make this lamellar Gel network more robust I have to increase cetearyl alcohol & corresponding % of BTAC also. Am I correct?
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@ketchito, Thank you once again. Surely I will try by both methods; adding Dimethicon in oil phase & adding as separate phase. So far I have added it separately. BTW what should be the batch temperature to add silicones as a separate phase. I have added it @ 42 degree c. ( I have used Dimethicone 350 cst)
Another thing bother me is, we are not emulsifying Dimethicon so @ 4% don’t you think that it will be greasy feeling during application?
Also would you pl. explain what do you mean by compability in this case ? As there is nothing other than cetearyl alcohol in oil phase. Do you want me to add 0.5% of ceterath 20 ? -
I have tried 1% Dimethicon in one batch.
In another batch I added 2% Bis aminopropyl Dimethicon. Third batch I combined Dimethicon @ 1% & 1% Bis aminopropyl Dimethicon. Do find a slight difference but not up to the mark.
When I was studying the chapter “Lamellar Gel Network ” by T. Iwata, I read a statement that the Lamellar Gel networks are slippery on their own. And I didn’t observe any emollient in Unilever conditioner plus I had a doubt addition of more emollients may disturb the performance & structure of lamellar Gel.
But now from your suggestion it seems that I have to add some more emollients.
I do have C12,C15 Alkyl benzoate on hand. I can try that with 2% in addition to Dimethicon @ 1%.
What is your opinion about unilever conditioner without emollients. How they could have they achieved the feel & performance ? -
I have attached herewith the ingredients list of Unilever conditioner.
I have spared no effort to mimic this product except that amodimethicone combination with PEG-7propyl Heptyl Ether. Instead I used Bis aminopropyl Dimethicone. I have made 22 prototypes. I have definitely gained a bit more command to prepare s Lamellar Gel network. But the end result is still not as expected. Hence finally I decided to post it here to get some more insight. -
sorry for delayed update. @ketchito, I heated CMEA,Cetearyl alcohol together & then added to shampoo batch. This seems to be worked for lab scale batch & also convenient on production scale. The batch is stable, no separation observed. Thank you so much.
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Yukahno, you even don’t need CMEA at that proportions of SLES & CAPB.( assuming your SLES is 28% active)
Also add CTAC @ 0.25%
Swap Plysorbate 80 with Polysorbate 20. -
@chemicalmatt , to avoid inventory cost I am searching for a common conditioning ingredients can be used both in Shampoo as well as conditioner. I am supposed to submit three variants of each.
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Thank you once again. Sorry for delayed reply. Well yesterday I used Bis aminopropyl Dimethicon @ 1%( in Shampoo Formulation) which is 100 % active. I found dry conditioning up to the mark. But wet conditioning was not as expected.
Now after your comment I am tempted to try 100% Amodimethicone within couple of days. BTW, will this improve wet feel also ? -
Thank you very much. Shall try it & update.
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I my case it was ready to use Castor hair oil. Leave on product… So I mixed up esters with different polarity, refractive index & viscosity. Caprylyl Methicone was all about reducing stickiness of Castor oil.
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I am sorry ,I would have shared more details. It is here now :-
Prototype 1)
SLES—12% active
CAPB—3% active
CMEA— 1% active
#CSA+SLES+Water blend— 2.5%
( #water 77%+CSA 12%+28% active SLES 11%)
RESULT:- No additional thickner, no salt, very good acceptable viscosity.Prototype 2)
AOS— 12.5% active
CAPB— 3% active
CMEA— 1% active
# CSA+ AOS+Water blend— 4%
(# Water 77%+CSA 12%+ 38% active AOS 11%)
RESUT:- Couldn’t get the viscosity. I have to add PEG 150 DS to get the acceptable viscosity.
The active anoinic level is almost same. In fact I have used more blend in 2nd prototype.
Instead as you said,it seems that I have to modify my premix blend. Will addition of 1% active CAPB in premix do the job ?
OR shall I increase the active AOS or Cetearyl alcohol?
Thanks once again. -
I faced this issue when I was working on Castor hair oil project. It had 75% of Castor oil. But I could resolve the issue by using C12,C25 Alkyl benzoate, Isopropyl Palmitate & coco Caprylate Caprate along with caprylyl Methicone & Cyclopentasiloxane.
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I was pinpointing that the LGN network created separately with SLES, water & ceto. This mixture was then added around 3-4% to SLES based shampoo; provides good thickning, foam stabilization as well as wonderful sensory to hand rub out.
This is not the out come with AOS. However it seems that addition of cetearyl alcohol is useful to keep Dimethicon suspended. Pl. correct me if I am wrong. -
ketchito said:@SunilHiwarkat1965 AOS doesn’t reach a gel phase same as SLES does, and that’s a requirement for a LGN. If you’re using CAPB, maybe you can try increasing it, or adding some salt to force a phase transition.ketchito said:@SunilHiwarkat1965 AOS doesn’t reach a gel phase same as SLES does, and that’s a requirement for a LGN. If you’re using CAPB, maybe you can try increasing it, or adding some salt to force a phase transition.
Yes. I do use CAPB @ 10.50% as well as CMEA @ 1.58%. I shall give a try to it.
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Thank you ketchio. This was immensely helpful. I have made a shampoo with lamellar gel network but that was SLES as primary surfactant. It had a very nice hand feel. But wonder I couldn’t get the same results when I switched to 38% AOS as primary surfactant. Can you have some light on this ?