[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist

These homogenizing mixers have such a different head structure than the Big Stix blender - which makes me wonder.. does there exist a “replacement head” for the Waring immersion blender that would turn it into something closer to a homogenizing mixer? Since it’s already a pretty powerful machine and all.

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist

FYI, if ever you’d like some photos of the setup, I’m happy to post those. Thank you-

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist

Thanks!

I think one question I do need an answer to (I understand why most need to be determined experimentally) is how we might configure our Big Stix in the interim.

Like - physically, how do we place it. Straight up, sitting on the bottom, dead center in the boiler?

The homogenizing mixers that I see all seem to have a straight vertical configuration.

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist

I figured you’d be the first to respond! You have pretty much guided us through getting this far since our start in early 2016!! We refer to you as “that expert chemist on that website”..

Thank you, some follow up questions I have (building upon what you have told me).

First, additional info on our current equipment

We trace/mix in this 13 Gallon double boiler tank (which I understand is quite popular for start-ups): http://www.soapequipment.com/Tanks/13GallonOilTank.htm

No doubt we’ll need to up-size next year.

Questions 2

1) With the size of our tank in mind, would either of your 2 recommended emulsifying mixers be *too big* for us? The “Admix” looks great for emulsifying, but seems to be quite large/long. It seems to be something you’d “bolt” onto a big boiler.

2) Let’s say we got a piece of equipment as you specified above. For how long (in seconds, minutes, etc.) would one typically run the machine at for products like ours? I understand that this isn’t a “one answer fits all” type of question..

3) If, until we get such equipment, we use our handy Waring Bix Stix immersion blender as a poor man’s replacement for an emulsifier/homogenizer. How would we use this? Our guess: place the machine dead center of the double boiler, make sure we have enough product so that the ‘vortex’ does NOT bottom out (thus introducing air), and use on maximum speed. The suction is so powerful that we basically can’t move the blender up-and-down - which I believe we wouldn’t want to do anyway. And how long might we want to run this machine for?

4) The emulsification/homogenization step - just to be very clear - is meant to be done after 100% of the ingredients have been mixed in, correct? All essential oils, jojoba, aloe vera, you name it.

Thank you!

(As a side effect of asking very newbie-level questions, I hope this thread becomes useful to others down the road.)

[stephanm]

Interesting. Thanks for the photo (I’m looking at the mocap.com site now as well.)

I would certainly prefer the pressure-sensitive alum/foil seals, as the above caps seem to be a bit.. heavy-duty for mere body wash bottles! But nice to have an interim option.

Oddly, enough, here’s the response I’ve received from an Alibaba seller of the ”

High quality aluminizing pressure sensitive seal liner for cosmetics” product:

Usually for liquid product, we do not suggest customers use foam pressure sensitive seal liner which is better for dry products.
...
We suggest you use aluminum foil induction sealing liner which is better for liquid soap.

.. Really? I thought the whole point of this being an “aluminized” version was that it would be OK with liquids..

It was this one: https://gdfgpack.en.alibaba.com/product/60510493842-801694017/High_quality_aluminizing_pressure_sensitive_seal_liner_for_cosmetics_package.html

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist
Aha, Alibaba is showing me plenty of “aluminizing pressure sensitive seal” search results. 

This may be precisely what we’re looking for! No equipment required (i.e. no induction sealing unit), but much more waterproof than the cheap foam things we’re using now.

Thanks for pointing me in this direction..

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist
You’re always the one that saves me here! From our early “what equipment should we invest in” to other questions regarding techniques and education, you pretty much helped us go from zero to 5+ retail locations! 

The 2 links you provided don’t work for me.. the first one is a 404 for me and the 2nd Alibaba link also shows up broken (“404 could not be located” on their end)

But from the URLs I should be able to run some searches, thank you!

[stephanm]

Vancouver, BC (Canada) - I’m sure there’s no regulation that requires for the seals, it’s always just been something we’ve insisted on for sophistication and professionalism etc. But.. if it’s truly not the norm, I guess I can bring it up with our managing director again, though I think I know how the decision will go..

Bill, is the choice truly only between these pressure-sensitive foam seals and the induction type? I agree the induction foil sealers seem like a pain in the ass! Was hoping there was something simple and in the middle of these two options.. Something that had a more foil or plastic feel to them, meant for liquid products etc.

Thank you-

[stephanm]

Bill, do you happen to know if there exists a “foil-type” seal that is pressure sensitive and easy to apply as well?

Or is the only option for foil the full “induction” process one?

[stephanm]

And the inside of the disc cap lid, although we may be moving to a flip cap lid in the future:

[stephanm]

^ The current ‘pressure sensitive seal’ that we’d like to replace. 

[stephanm]

Bill - it just has a very, very unprofessional look if they are not sealed. We have company stakeholders that - back in the day - refused to even give samples to their friends because they weren’t sealed and they found it personally embarrassing to hand out such products. It’s simply not an option. We’re in multiple locations at both a retail and commercial level - we simply *need* to be sealed.

Regarding the broken links.. maybe I did something stupid like copy the photo from my personal Google Photos account! D’oh. Here let me try again..

[stephanm]

“Horrendous!” No no, it’s just fine. Perhaps ‘dissolving’ was a strong word. If the bottle is kept sideways, there comes a time - I’m not sure if it’s 1 month, or a few months - where some bottom layer of the foam seal comes off and is floating in the soap. The seal from the exterior looks just fine, but there’s some piece that always comes off inside.

Looking back I see now that there are plenty of places which note that these seals are not meant for liquid products, so it does not seem to be an unexpected result - I just never noticed those warnings until I started searching..

Anyway, would appreciate an alternative suggestion, something beyond calling our soap “horrendous”, thanks

[stephanm]

I was told from a vendor of induction foil seals that due to the shape of the “inside of our disc cap” (which is quite standard, but apparently induction foil seals require completely flat inner cap surfaces..?), we may not be able to use induction foil seals..

[stephanm]

I’ll provide a photo of what our current pressure seal looks like after it’s been stuck on via screwing the cap on tight:

[stephanm]

Thank you guys, appreciate the business perspective on this. It’s definitely something I will keep in mind.

@Bobzchemist from your last statement I assume that if we are to keep something in storage, you suggest that it be the undiluted base paste, as opposed to the diluted stuff? (This is what I assumed going into this question).

Following up - I have read in several (highly unscientific) soap making sites that the soap base gets “better with age”. This is actually the angle that I was considering when I asked this question. Business practices aside, is there any truth in there being a desired period of ‘resting time’ for the base body wash soap paste (which is quite firm) after it’s created? Beyond the initial 24 hours, I mean. I’ve seen people suggest that it sit in a container for 4 weeks to ‘mature’. 

Please advise, thank you-

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist 

Understood. Thank you for your help again!

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist 
I knew I’d find an answer here because we have already invested in several pieces of equipment that you yourself recommended to us - this Big Stix immersion blender being one of them!

Our formula for the base is 80% coconut/20% olive, with the rest being the appropriate mixture of KOH + water.

I’m not too sure how to know that we’re beating air into the batch during the tracing step or not.

I believe you know this exact piece of equipment pretty well - is there a specific dial setting that you’re comfortable using?

[stephanm]

Sure we can, it’s all quite unprofessional at the moment!

So you suggest using a high speed immersion blender to mix the guar gum with glycerin before adding both to the rest of the batch? Sure can do-

And how would you recommend stirring the entire batch to completion?

I see some ‘slow speed mixers’ here: http://www.soapequipment.com/Tanks/OilTankOptions.htm

..But unfortunately nothing for the 6 gallon tank we’re going to order.. and also it’s crazy expensive..

[stephanm]

@mikethair: might I ask which “20 Gal (160 lbs) Water Jacketed Melter/Heater” you are using in your process? Thanks-

[stephanm]

@Belassi - she’s using citric acid.

[stephanm]

@mikethair - By ‘mix in the remaining ingredients’ I meant all the stuff on top of the saponified oil base. In our case it’s things like essential oils, jojoba oil, guar gum/vegetable glycerine.

[stephanm]

@mikethair: why haven’t you invested in an overhead stirrer? When you mix the saponified oil(s) with the rest of the ingredients, do you just stir everything by hand in a separate container? Or do you have that whisk attachment for the Waring Immersion Blender?

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist: Fantastic answer! Thank you so much. You’ve completely cleared up everything, and pointed out how we may improve our process. Also, I have a good idea re: what hardware to obtain. (I’ve even found that Waring immersion blender on Craigstlist!)

For reference - she hasn’t been using the mixer (stick blender) for the full 3 hours. Most of it is just ‘open up the lid every 30 minutes and stir by hand’.

But now I understand why there are 2 different times as explained by the chemical process (the external energy that we added for 3 hours accelerated the process, I suppose, though it wasted a lot of time to monitor, keep boiling, etc). We can just let the chemical process run its course overnight!

If we have any more silly questions I’ll ask in another thread. You’ve all helped me out more than enough here. Thanks from Vancouver, Canada!

[stephanm]

@Bobzchemist: She has historically been making around 3lbs of the saponified paste. Like.. super small batches.

I’m very much confused about the ’10 minutes to saponify’ part. Her teacher (and all the video material) includes over 3 hours of cooking until you get the paste.

Even looking at instructions from a local soap making shop (http://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/How_to_Make_Natural_Liquid_Soap_s/367.htm), they say the following:

“Continue cooking the mixture for a minimum three hour period. During this time, you will note that the mixture will become translucent. After three hours turn off the heat and let the paste stand in the double boiler overnight if possible.”

I’m really confused how some people can say 10 minutes, and others 3+ hours with the same ingredients (oil, KOH + water)..