[imported_stefarama]

On the salon side, we recommend this for damaged hair.  The idea for us is that since shampoo wants to pull out dirt and oil, but damaged ends have neither, conditioning the ends first gives the shampoo something to do without further drying out the ends. We then recommending conditioning after shampooing as usual.  Would love to hear if there is any chemistry to back this up.

[imported_stefarama]

might I suggest a human hair mannequin head for testing the shampoo? I do this all the time until I get to a point where I like it and am ready to use on humans.

[imported_stefarama]

The other side of this coin is that most permanent hair color has a pH of around 9, so wouldn’t that just pull out those oils negating said ‘stuffing’?

[imported_stefarama]

Awesome! Thank you!

[imported_stefarama]

I totally get the marketing angle, but actually, the goal is to broaden a base of products with minimal inventory.  For example, one 5 gallon batch of finished conditioner can have different enhancements for slightly different results. 
I currently do this with fragrance only - the batch is unscented, and the scent is added at the time of purchase.  Others do this with facial serums: adding vitamin C or retinol, etc.
I’m wondering if there’s a way to make the boosters (additions to finished product) do anything useful and not just be pure marketing (or my stinginess on shelf space).

[imported_stefarama]

Wonderful! Thank you!!

[imported_stefarama]

Thank you!

[imported_stefarama]

Thank you!!  

This is the powder PVP I found:
 https://www.makingcosmetics.com/PVP_p_313.html
It says it’s soluble in alcohol, but I of course haven’t tried it.  It also appears to be the k-90, so if I used it would I need to dilute it further to get it thinner or would that negate the hold?

I can check out the one you mentioned, too, but wondering how they might compare.

[imported_stefarama]

@Dirtnap1 Thanks so much for the quick reply!! 

I have been working with EOs for 2.5 decades so I have some good sources now and know to use them accordingly.  I don’t make them from scratch… yet.

Good to know about the PVP solution.  I found a powder form… would that dissolve in the alcohol?  Will I need a neutralizer if I add the VA? I did find a natural (sugar-based) VA that doesn’t need neutralizer that I’m looking into.

Good to know about the silicones.  Any experience with dimethicone?  It seems to be in everything so I’m hoping that means it’s friendly to work with?

I will check out Swithcrafy Monkey, too.

Thanks so much for the tips!!

[imported_stefarama]

I’m still trying to figure this out.  I’ve spent months trying to find someone to make this for me but no-one will do less than 20 gallons, which is like a 3 year supply for me.  So I’m ready to give this a try on my own.

I’m fine with using PVP and non-natural ingredients to get the proper function. As long as I have more natural ingredients than not, it’ll still fit my marketing story. 

@Gunther I love the simplicity of your suggestions - easy for a newb like me to follow.   I’m interested in trying your idea of ethyl alcohol to 2-5% PVP but I have many questions… sorry in advance.

1. I’m wondering if I could add a few natural extracts, hydrosols or additives for the natural appeal… like calendula extract, lavender hydrosol, etc.  Since they are (or could be) water-based, how does that affect the ratios of ethyl alcohol to PVP, if at all?   I’m guessing that the 2-5% PVP is overall, so if I add other things, the PVP goes up to maintain that percentage, right?  And PVP doesn’t need a neutralizer if I remember correctly?  

2. This is my perfume base: SD40 Alcohol, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Caprylyl Capryl Glucoside.  Can I use this instead of the ethyl alcohol?  I ask because I know it will hold the fragrance once added without needing a polysorbate.

3. I also like the idea of a silicone for shine.  If I use the PVP for hold, can I add the cyclomethicone on it’s own or do I still need to dissolve another silicone into it?  If I do need to dissolve another silicone into it, could I use dimethicone? And also if I need to dissolve it into it, what’s the ratio I should use?  I do want to be careful not to be creating build-up on the hair over time.

4. If I do add the water-based extracts or hyrosols, at which point do I need to add a preservative?  (like once I reach x% water/additives, now I need to add a preservative) Or do I always need one even if I did the straight alcohol and PVP?

Sorry for all the questions, but I’m finally ready to order my ingredients and give this a go!  Exciting! 

[imported_stefarama]

Hi!  That would be fantastic!  Ideally I’d like to purchase either by the gallon or by the 5 gallon drum (or multi gallons in gallon containers) and go from there.  I have packaging materials and a professional label printer, so I don’t NEED that to be part of the process.  Or I can always provide packaging and labels if that’s easier?  If that’s an option, I’d love to hear more about your company!  Is it easier to call or email me directly?  Is that allowed?

[imported_stefarama]

@Colorfuljulie  I’m with you 100% on performance over natural.  After all, I can’t give them perfect highlights naturally, right?   Plus, with styling products in particular, they just wash off.  They’re not meant to soak in like skin care.

The fragrance-free private label would be ideal!  I have searched what seems like all of them… I run into either they require 5000 units (or $5000 - something about 5000 is their magic number) or they’re all natural and don’t carry hairspray or strong hold gels.  Or, they carry what I want, but won’t do fragrance free. 

Currently I use a private label place for shampoo, conditioner & body wash that I like (and they’re natural).  Sometimes I have to buy them in 5 gallon drums, but that’s ok.  I use a private label company for styling products, but they don’t do fragrance-free or offer any changes to the product at all.  I just put my label on their pre-packaged items.   

I have family in FL and we all have fine hair, so I totally get the love/hate with silicones in humidity.

What I’m really trying to do is carry the products by the gallon in fragrance free, and offer fragrances they can add at the time of purchase.  It’s going well with the shampoos, conditioners and body washes so far.  I also offer custom made perfumes.  The idea is they can have their chosen scent added to their entire routine so they don’t have all these conflicting scents, and instead have one, signature scent that has gone on in layers.  The liquid, gel and cream styling products are the final piece - especially the hairspray.

[imported_stefarama]

Thanks so much! 

@Colorfuljulie , I’m a hairdresser for 18 yrs and totally agree about the marketing! 

The unscented part is the most important part to me. I have sensitivities to synthetic fragrances so I’m stuck with essential oils for scenting.  I can’t add fragrance to an aerosol can, so I need the pump. 

Would Carbomer 940 work for the PVP in @Gunther ‘s suggestion?  It’s typically used as a suspension or gelling agent in its product description.  Not sure the difference between 940 and other carbomers. 

Could I also add PDM 20 Silicone for added shine or would that break down the carbomer or even break down itself in the alcohol?

And to try to make it a LITTLE natural, could I use organic vodka as the alcohol or would that have too much water??

If all these things work, what ratio/formula would you recommend, allowing room for some EO’s for fragrance?

Thanks again!!

[imported_stefarama]

Thank you!  I tried it (used a fragrance oil instead) and it worked great!

[imported_stefarama]

I will try the salt curve.  Thank you for answering so quickly!  You guys are awesome! 

[imported_stefarama]

Here are the ingredients.  I also want to remove the cocamide dea from the next batch as well, so since I’ll be changing it anyway, I wanted to address the viscosity as well.

Ingredients: Aqua (Deionized Water), Ammonium Laureth Sulfate, Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cocamide Dea, Triticum Vulgare Germ Oil (Wheat Germ Oil), Glycerin (Kosher, Vegetable), Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis Oil (Sweet Almond Oil), Prunus Armeniaca Kernel Oil (Apricot Kernel Oil), Simmondsia Chinensis Seed Oil (Organic Jojoba Oil), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice (Organic Aloe), Panthenol (Vitamin B5), Silk Protein Amino Acid Blend of Sodium Pca, Sodium Lactate, Arginine, Aspartic Acid, Glycine, Alanine, Serine, Valine, Isoleucine, Proline, Threonine, Histidine, Phenylalanine, Asparagus Racemosus Root Extract (Organic Shatavari), Coriandrum Sativum Leaf Extract (Organic Cilantro), Geranium Maculatum Extract (Wild Geranium), Chamomilla Recutita Extract (Chamomile), Rosmarinus Officinalis Extract (Organic Rosemary), Centella Asiatica Extract (Organic Gotu Kola), Equisetum Arvense Extract (Horsetail), Taraxacum Officinale Extract (Organic Dandelion), Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate, Phenoxyethanol, Alcohol, Ethylhexylglycerin.

[imported_stefarama]

I did read this article (https://chemistscorner.com/salt-curve-analysis-how-to-control-cleansing-cosmetics/) about the salt curve and am happy to try that.  However, is there another item that could be a little more nourishing?  This particular shampoo (and sadly, I don’t have the formula) is designed for and works great on dry, damaged, color-treated hair.  I don’t want to impede that.  It contains amino acids.  Some thickeners I’m considering:
Salt, (would this just be table salt?)
Kaolin clay
Xanthan gum
any other recommendations??
If I get it to be the viscosity that I want, I can order future batches with the custom edits.