[steamedrice]

Pharma said:

H2O2 is the fastest to act but it’s liquid and always contains >2/3 water.

Isocyanurates are, if I’m not mistaken, ‘slow release’ chemicals and better suited for pools or those tablets which hang in a crate inside the toilet.

Thank you so much! I just purchased some Calcium Peroxide… doesn’t seem to add foaming?

[steamedrice]

Hi amazing formulators & chemists,

As previously mentioned, I’m designing a toilet bowl cleansing bomb that you can leave-in for 30 minutes & will get rid off aged dirty stains.

I have made a few batches of my toilet bomb.
(See attached photo) It performed very close to my expectations! I wanted it to foam all the way up to the rim!

Few observations:
1) Foaming is more intense when NaHCO3:C6H8O7 is closer to 55:45 than 3:1

2) Instead of Bath bombs, I tried to just made it as powder form & it also foams more quickly & immensely. Prob because of higher total surface area?

3) As binder for the bomb, I used Cocamide DEA, as it is sticky & works great as a binder. Is this even practical? No idea…

Few questions I have if anyone can kindly shed some light

1) Will SLS foam more with Capb or DEA? 

2) Do I still need Calcium Hypochlorite when Im already using Sodium Percarbonate? Im looking for heavy duty cleaning

3) Should I add TAED as activator for Sodium Percarbonate? 

4) Will adding Calcium Peroxide increase foaming as it is an oxygen generator as well as a disinfectant?

5) Which is a better disinfectant for toilet bowls? H2O2, Calcium Hypochlorite or Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate? Or any other kind suggestions?

Thank you all!

[steamedrice]

Pharma said:

You can buy several catalysts (in powder form) of undisclosed composition.

Apart from that: Platinum on charcoal and other lab catalysts as well as powdered blood might not be practical, too expensive, and/or incompatible with hypochlorite… the rest you’ll have to google cause I’d have to do the same.

I don’t see any advantage of combining two gas producing reactions in one cleaning bomb. If you were to rely only on the reaction of acid with carbonate, then you’d have H2O2 left to help with the cleaning which you forfeit when adding yeast or iodide. Besides, all the fun of the latter reaction is that it, if done ‘right’, shoots out of the vessel, high up into the air .

Thank you again replying! Appreciate it.

I was hoping the ‘double’ bubbling reaction will make it foam more. But with my first attempt it failed. I’ll try again without the yeast & with different ratios of Sodium Percarbonate：Citric acid. Hope it’ll turn out good.

Interesting that you mentioned the iron in the yeast reacting with H2O2! Is it sort of the same idea as fenton reaction in pharmacology that I remember studying (ie Metronidazole)?

[steamedrice]

chemicalmatt said:

@steamedrice, there is one basic flaw in that formula of yours: the ratio of percarbonate to citric acid is 4:1, where it should be closer to 2:1, especially with Ca hypo in there.  That alone will produce a lot more fizzy. Also, I assume you are using coated percarbonate and hypochlorite? If not you’ll experience constant sublime reduction of the oxygenators to the point where there’s not much left to produce gas on solution/acidification. I used to test formulas like this in sealed f/f/s pouches, and even the coated percarbonates will sublime. Per Perry’s comment, no yeast enzyme I know of will produce gas very fast. I’d delete it entirely - no need for it. He’s also right about the soap. Add some SLS powder to that sucker and see what happens. SLS is peroxide stable.

Thank you so much chemicalmatt! Yes, using coated products.

I’ve revised my formula to as following:
- Sodium Percarbonate 74g
- Anhydrous citric acid 36g
- Calcium hypochlorite 40g
- Sodium Lauryl Sulfate 30g
qs. 180g to fit mold

As Perry mentioned, essential oil will anti-foam. What do you suggest that I use instead to bind it together?

Thank you!!!

[steamedrice]

Pharma said:

@Perry Yeast is added as catalyst to kickstart decomposition of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2 is what’s originally used in the elephants toothpaste concoction and what’s created when dissolving sodium percarbonate in water). There are other, better, catalysts available such as potassium iodide.

Hi Pharma, thank you for your comment!

Yes, Potassium Iodide is added with H2O2 to create immense foaming. But I read up it will cause yellow fuming, which is not ideal as a household product. Is there anything else that will act as a catalyst as well as potassium iodide?

Will sodium percarbonate with citric acid + foaming agent (ie. SLS, Cocoamidopropyl Betaine) do the trick without yeast?

Thanks again!

[steamedrice]

Perry said:

As far as I can tell, you have no foaming agent in there to trap the gas and make bubbles.
You also have included an oil that will reduce foam.
In the elephant toothpaste experiment they include a surfactant like soap that captures the gas as it’s formed. I’m not sure if the enzyme in the yeast will produce enough gas fast enough but without a foaming agent, all the gas it does produce just goes into the air. 

Thank you so much Perry! 

My intent of adding drops of essential oil is merely to wet the powders & add a bit of scent to the mix.

What do you suggest that I use to act as binder for the mix? 

[steamedrice]

Wow… i really enjoy reading comments like these. Very insightful. Thanks all!

[steamedrice]

Thank you all! Really appreciate it. 

[steamedrice]

Oh my god! Thank you. I’ll look into it. Thanks all so much. This forum is a dream come true… 

[steamedrice]

Thanks all for the answers. Really appreciate it!
Very interesting!

[steamedrice]

Benz3ne said:

How are the ingredients listed on the pure tea tree oil? Could you perhaps contact them and have them supply it to you as a raw ingredient? 

The other question to consider is why do you need the highest content of chamazulene? Have you tried it with less chamazulene containing species and if so how notable were the differences?

I’d have said if you’ve a good relationship with an essential oil supplier they’d be able to offer insight into how much is good value for money, or whether you need blue tansy, or not, or whether they stock it!

Sorry about the large amount of speculation, but really you’re paying over the odds if you’re buying a product that has both manufacturer’s margin and reseller’s margin on it, so that could make your product unprofitable or unsellable. 

Thank you so much for your reply!

As with the Bosisto’s Tea Tree product, the ingredient list only list Melaleuca oil as the sole ingredient. I know there might be other excipient ingredients not listed. But taking the “cost” question out of the equation, I want to know if its feasible to take an off the shelf product and reformulate it for a commercial product?

Because some raw ingredients (eg. plant extracts) also come as a solution or oil that has preservatives in it anyway which is often not listed in the final product.

Basically taking someone elses work & add your midas touch to it & repackage to sell it @ a higher margin. 

[steamedrice]

@lmosca Thank you! One more question (since you’re amazing at what you do), as a beginner where should i begin? Any books/any resources you recommend? Thank you!!!!! Really appreciate it

[steamedrice]

Amazing quality posts… thank you all.

I am not trained professionally as a cosmetic chemist. But ever since taking up a course in simple&complex compounding w/ PCCA, I fell in love with formulating. This is so much more interesting than being a pharmacist dispensing Tylenol everyday. Hah!

@lmosca Where did you get trained as a cosmetic chemist? Your answers are so in-depth!

[steamedrice]

Thank you all for the contribution. All I can say is Wow! A question leads to all these amazing discussions. 

If Xanthan gum / Sepimax impedes the release of alcohol, does that mean it’ll also slow down the release of actives if used in other products like serum or moisturizing gel?

Thanks again. Much appreciated 

[steamedrice]

em88 said:

You have to ask yourself since the beginning. Do you really need to have a gel?
If yes, xanthan gum can work. Still, don’t expect any good viscosity. You can use carbomer if you have. 
What is the reason of Aloe in your formulation? 
There is no need for glycerin as long as you have 1,3-Propanediol in your formulation.

I’ve changed my mind since. Will be making an hand sanitizing spray. Going to forget about Xanthan and Sepimax Zen (also because I can’t source it here in Taipei). Aloe is in there for its soothing and moisturizing properties, but maybe I should leave it out? (Thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate it)

Perry said:

Get rid of the aloe, tocopherol & lavender oil. When making a functional product like hand sanitizer you shouldn’t be adding superfluous ingredients. 

You should get Carbomer if you are going to thicken the product. Xanthan & Sepimax Zen are too salt tolerant and won’t properly release the alcohol. You likely won’t get the kill rate necessary for the product to work.

Thank you Perry. Will Aloe, Tocopherol & Lavender dampen the effectiveness of my hand sanitizing product?

Ah I see! So carbomer is the way to go if I was going to make a gel-form. I’ve since decided to switch my formula to spray form. Just having Water, Ethanol and Propanediol. Thanks again! 

[steamedrice]

DeedeeUkulele said:

steamedrice said:

Below is their LOI:
Water, Potassium Cocoyl Glycinate, Kaolin, Bentonite, Disiloxane, Glycerin, Methylpropanediol, Propanediol, Coco-Betaine, Sodium Cocoyl Apple Amino Acids, Laminaria Japonica Powder, Magnesium […]

Is that the Phykology one? The most famous bubble clay mask now is the Elizavecca Milky Piggy Carbonated Bubble Clay Mask. I don’t know about the Phykology one, but the Elizavecca foams up like crazy seconds after you apply it:

Elizavecca’s LOI: 
Water, Glycerin, Methyl Perfluorobutyl Ether, Acrylates Copolymer, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate, Lauryl Glucoside, Retinyl Palmitate, Allantoin, Arginine, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Ascorbyl Glucoside, Ethylhexylglycerin, Ceramide Np, Sodium Pca, Sodium Chloride, Saccharide Isomerate, Polyquaternium-10, Potassium Cocoyl Glycinate, Potassium Cocoate, Hexylene Glycol, Butylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Hydroxyethyl Urea, Citrus Limon (Lemon) Peel Oil, Limonene, Citral, Sodium Citrate, Disodium Edta, Phenoxyethanol

It seems Methyl Perfluorobutyl Ether is what makes the Elizavecca one bubble like crazy: https://labmuffin.com/how-do-bubbling-oxygen-masks-work/

As for the Phykology mask, it doesn’t seem to foam up as much as the Elizavecca one, if at all. You can tell because they only claim to have ‘micro bubbles’ and there’s no perfluorocarbons in the LOI.

Yes. Its the Phykology brand.

I recognize this Elizavecca mask! Hahaha.

Isnt Perfluorocarbons bad for global warming…? Lol

Thank you so much for your contribution! 

[steamedrice]

EVchem said:

1) looks like the bubbling is just coming from surfactants- so Potassium Cocoyl Glycinate, Coco-Betaine, Capryl/Capramidopropyl Betaine (think that is it in this formula)

2) yes all those glycols are multipurpose- solvents, penetration enhancers, preservatives or preservative boosters (they reduce the water activity)

The oils are  held in with the combination of surfactants, and the viscosity enhancers ( the clays, the gums, the polymeric thickener)- I don’t know if the glycols contribute much on top of that, there was one article cited on the forum suggesting including glycols could actually destabilize emulsions.

Thank you so much for your reply. Really appreciate it!

So much to learn about glycols… keeps me entertained. Any good books or websites to recommend re: glycols? Thanks!