[SoapyWays]

@MarkBroussard Question regarding the safety portion. You claim all companies, regardless of size will have to provide 48 Hour patch testing, ingredient toxicology safety assessment.. which makes sense for generally all products.

But you also state they must perform Preservative Challenge Testing on all products, what about anhydrous products? Wouldn’t these products fail a preservative challenge since there is no preservative? In example a body butter which contains only shea butter, mango butter, some carrier oils (argan, jojoba, etc), and then essential oil or fragrance. Or even hair oils or beard oils, which just include carrier oils and a scent. Sort of confused here on that aspect, everything else makes general sense to me.

[SoapyWays]

Ingredient lists are going to get pretty long.. at .5-1% some of these fragrances have up to 13 allergens! 🤯

[SoapyWays]

I wanted to jump back in here and thank everyone for the wealth of knowledge that has been shared thus far. It has honestly been more than I was initially expecting, to say that I have been fascinated with the discussion would be a drastic understatement. Some people want to sit at a table with their favorite actors, musicians, etc. In my relatively young chemistry learning experience, it would be astonishing to round table with the minds here and witness an open debate.. the wealth of knowledge you all hold is something to aspire to. The counterpoints and different perspectives are simply fascinating. Absolutely love all the backup studies and references, I have been sifting through and absorbing it all!

To those whom are in support of parabens, formaldehyde.. To pinpoint where I am coming from, all I’ve ever known since growing up is parabens=bad bad bad, which is where I assume the general mindset of the average consumer is at.. So to those in support of the data behind parabens, formaldehyde.. do you put this pressure on the company/brands to educate the consumer to say “hey don’t believe the fear mongering.. here’s the facts, here are the studies, here is what you should know to make your own decision”.. Or do you realize that a product with parabens simply won’t move units and focus on a different preservation approach?

I realize it depends on the formulation and product, so keeping with shampoo based around more natural surfactant alternatives such as glucosides, what would be the next top tier researched preservative without a bad stigma against it? This has been a big issue for me as well, finding alternative preservatives that actually have a mountain of research and data behind it, parabens are bountiful in this regard.

I personally feel that a reversal in the mindset of the average consumer is such a mountain to climb, simply because the stigma existed for so many years. Does anyone know if there are any major brands doing such a thing?

I find myself somewhere between the two points being brought up here. I enjoy Mike’s take and also sympathize with knowing someone with issues endocrine disruption, etc. Without diving too far into detail, it’s what started my chemist journey and set me on the path I am on today. But I find saponification works great for body wash and the like, but it absolutely destroys my hair/their hair.. I find potassium cocoate particularly drying, from our perspective.

So to you Mike, if you were to formulate, again sticking with typical shampoo, have you found any preservatives that worked for your wife, held up, and have sufficient data behind them?

Between the greenwashing.. misinformation that is out there.. fear mongering.. It makes it incredibly difficult to research and cherry pick ingredients that aren’t mutagens, endocrine disruptors, carcinogenic. There’s just so much to learn! Again, can’t thank you all enough for all knowledge shared here. I have a bunch more questions but feel I’ve said enough for now. Thank you 🙏

• This reply was modified 11 months, 2 weeks ago by  SoapyWays. Reason: layout jumbled oddly, had to fix spacing

[SoapyWays]

<div>Thank you for your input Phil! Any idea when can we expect the specifics for all of this? Seems crazy they expect these to be in effect in December and still haven’t released the definitive specifics for their requirements?</div>

[SoapyWays]

Oh absolutely agree. However I do notice essential oils may have 2-3 that will cross the .001% mark. Obviously some have more. But a lot of fragrances I checked, while less irritating, have more to list. I wonder ultimately how this will play out to the general consumer.

I’ve also been looking into UK brands and I see them approaching it two different ways..

Comapny 1: ingredient 1, ingredient 2, ingredient 3, ingredient 4, Parfum (fragrance), allergen 1, allergen 2, allergen 3

Company 2: ingredient 1, ingredient 2, ingredient 3, ingredient 4, essential oils*

*Some of the essential oils used contain some naturally occurring allergens: allergen 1, allergen 2, allergen 3

My assumption is company 1 is correct but I’ve seen a great deal going the route of #2. Some big brands too. Are they both correct? As long as you stipulate the allergens on the label is that being compliant? I thought I read it had to be part of the ingredients list itself, but I could be wrong.

[SoapyWays]

This is what I had assumed based on other information I had read. So what would then be your recommendation for a preservative with pH of 10, let’s assume Castile Soap? Phenoxy?

[SoapyWays]

I literally had just asked them this the other week! I wanted to know the pH levels of their Shampoo offerings and I was told:

Extra Gentle Shampoo 5.5-5.8 pH
Daily Shampoo 5.8-6.2 pH
Dandruff Flake Removal 6.2-6.5 pH
Shampoo/Body Wash 5.5-5.8 pH

This raised 2 questions.. one how did they get Potassium Cocoate to work at a pH below 7? Given these are factual. And two, why no need for a preservative at that pH?

Interestingly enough I found some information that suggested Potassium Cocoate could be lowered into acidic territory when combined with heavy use of a solubilizer, in this case Caprylyl Caprylyl Glucoside would be it. I haven’t experimented on this yet but intend to do so. I haven’t bought their Shampoo to test the pH to see if they are factual pH levels, I may for experimentation.

Now the preservative part had me stumped and this thread may have solved the mystery.. they just may be irresponsible or untruthful. However I do have a question based on other information I’ve read. If a product is 70% or more surfactant would it need a preservative at a pH of say their 5.5? I’m hoping @PhilGeis could chime in here.

I had assumed this is how some Castile soap or saponified soap got away with less than a pH of 10. I have in my possession two Saponified Soaps, one a pH of 8.5 and the other a pH of 7.3. Both from what seem to be two different credible sources. Is this also irresponsible on their part?