[RedCoast]

Graillotion said:

RedCoast said:

@abierose

Black pepper and clove essential oils are my favorite! I can’t turn down a good orange and clove fragrance, It’s difficult to pick a fixative that doesn’t overwhelm the peppery notes.

Benzoin is a good fixative in general, but it can be too sweet and vanilla-y. Ylang Ylang III is excellent, but it can be on the pricey side. I haven’t tried the other distillations of Ylang Ylang yet, but I heard they can make interesting compositions.

I’m currently experimenting with juniper with pepper, and I like the results so far…

I have about killed myself trying to make an EO combination I love.  I have created tons of tolerable ones….but tolerable is always unacceptable to me.  Funny thing is….my crown jewel is a natural mosquito lotion.  It is a 13 EO blend that is just jammed full of Vanillin.  Of course EO’s have an effective life of 17-18 minutes for repelling mosquitos….so fixatives are the quintessential component.  I have found the typical fragrance fixatives all but worthless for fixing EO’s… So I have come up with a crazy cocktail of fixers….that ultimately give me several hours of protection….and as mentioned before…with the crazy load of vanillin in there….smelling like sugar cookies.   Can’t give away all my secrets….but some places to look would be….triethyl citrate…. maybe use C12 C15 alkyl benzoate as your emollient of choice….and give a look at Floratech’s hydrolyzed jojoba esters as possible helps.  My system is far more elaborate than that…but those are the cards I am willing to show.

My latest venture is a natural pain cream… I work with the finest mind in this field, and have ended up with something that has a scent mix (some of which is used to create a bit of a placebo effect) with wintergreen, mint, and clove…surprisingly not too bad.  One of the key scented constituents is paeonol, which has an uncanny ability to dominate the overall scent of the formula, even though by itself, you hardly notice the smell, but even including it at less than 1% in formula….wants to dominate with it’s minty smell.

The aforementioned products were produced only with function in mind, and the scent was a result of combining the functionals.  As far as scenting something like a facial moisturizer…I have not found the magic bullet yet, so I ended up using rose absolute with frankincense oleoresin, and phenethyl alcohol.  Quite tolerable to the masses, even those that dislike artificial rose scent.  Somehow….the frankincense adds just enough of a spice…to confuse, and lull the senses. BTW…I have found frankincense EO…to have No value at all, for any purpose, functional or scenting.  The mentor makes me produce a growing number of the ingredients I use.

I have not yet given up (on creating a dreamy EO fragrance)….I rarely give up…but sometimes take sabbaticals.  I have all the mentioned EO’s…with the exception of pepper…and you have me intrigued…and will be ordering some soon!  I have also been working at creating ginger extract with the help of my mentor, as part of the multi pronged pain cream,…and will be intrigued on experimenting with that….as one of my favorite commercial fragrance oils….uses ginger as part of the scent profile.

I have always been intrigued with the citrus EO’s…and now that I am finally working on a NIGHT cream… might have an opportunity to include them in the scent profile.  Still trying to get the barrier function where my Swiss mastermind thinks it should be.  

I primarily work with perfume oils and candles, because that’s where you get the most body with the FOs and EOs. Alcohol-based perfumes and lotions are very tricky, and I don’t like to lose the subtlety and complexity with my EOs, but I’m still experimenting.

I agree with the mint! Everything in the minty family likes to dominate the composition. Davana and galbanum are almost as bad, though.

Yes, you are correct with the frankincense oleoresin + phenethyl alcohol combination! This is why Moroccan Rose EO is tolerable and even popular with those who don’t like the typical rose scents-it’s all because of the spicy undertone!

Ylang Ylang III is an excellent fixative for multiple reasons. Yes, the resins like labdanum are better for the fixative part, but Ylang Ylang III really shines because it blends with black pepper perfectly, and you can make other interesting, luxurious effects with other (cheaper) EOs! There’s a lot of flexibility in creating a scent profile… you could play up the woodiness… or you can enhance the spice… or you can highlight the floral notes! Ylang Ylang is the best way to make an oriental composition, and yes, it goes well with ginger… I think you need to give it a shot!

I’ve sniffed Ylang Ylang Complete before, and I don’t have this on hand yet for experimental purposes… but WOW, that was an intense floral! My local EO seller told me that it’s very popular with women… maybe that will be the secret to your night cream?

If you really want to try Ylang Ylang, get a sampler pack with all the grades! I wish I did earlier, even though I wasn’t interested in the other sweeter and more floral grades at the time… I will get a sample pack of Ylang after I complete my lavender experiments.

Oh, and if you’re looking for citrus… get bergamot first. Make sure it’s bergapten/furocoumarin-free. Really, you can’t go wrong with bergamot… it’s bright, fresh, and not sharp like other citruses. Besides, it’s awesome with black pepper, and goes very well with other spices like clove and ginger!

Oooh, a night cream! That’s one of my current projects, too! I’m making one for my mother, who also has oily skin despite her age… it’s genetics, and I’m cursed with it, too. She’s a tough one to formulate for… but she’s happy to take my experiments!

[RedCoast]

abierose said:

Yessss!!! Oh my gosh, I LOVE my black pepper essential oil! I have used it with Bergamot, black spruce and cypress…so amazing!

I haven’t tried the natural fragrance oils from wholesale supplies plus but I have gotten a few from essential wholesale supply that are awesome…specifically their Passionfruit and Papaya oils  

And I’ve said the same thing multiple times…I wish I would have discovered this forum long before I did…the information and knowledge I’ve gained, and continue to learn from, is priceless. And everyone is very kind and honest and intelligent too!! I ????

I was shocked how good the woody essential oils were! The fruity/jam notes in the cypress and spruce added more body and depth than I thought they would! Sometimes, you get those very sharp notes in there, though. 

Have you tried hinoki wood, yet? A very unusual wood… you almost don’t want to blend it with anything. It’s a bit spicy, too. I’m not sure why it’s not more popular in Europe and the USA yet. Maybe because it doesn’t last long enough? :p

Gosh, this place is a gold mine! (Platinum mine, maybe?) I only wish the search function was better! It’s difficult to dig up the older threads… the redirects to the landing page makes things difficult. Searching through the Wayback Machine hasn’t been fruitful so far.

[RedCoast]

@abierose

Black pepper and clove essential oils are my favorite! I can’t turn down a good orange and clove fragrance, either! I like the contrast between bergamot and black pepper, though if you throw a little basil in there I can’t help but become drawn to it like a bee to beebalm!

Yeah, it’s too bad that black pepper and clove are middle to top notes… it’s really hard to make them last as long as I’d like . It’s difficult to pick a fixative that doesn’t overwhelm the peppery notes.

Benzoin is a good fixative in general, but it can be too sweet and vanilla-y. Ylang Ylang III is excellent, but it can be on the pricey side. I haven’t tried the other distillations of Ylang Ylang yet, but I heard they can make interesting compositions.

I’m currently experimenting with juniper with pepper, and I like the results so far… but it doesn’t last as long as I’d like it, either.

Have you tried the “100% natural” fragrance oils from wholesalesuppliesplus.com yet? Those are surprisingly good, and they’ve given me ideas for my own creations. The ones I tried so far don’t have that airy, perfumey note that’s present in too many other “normal” fragrance oils. Unfortunately, they ARE pricey, and they won’t last in soap!

Are you familiar with Fragrantica? They have an ingredients search bar, which has become indispensable for my fragrance research.

I’m very glad I joined this site when I did. I could kick myself for not discovering this place sooner!

Paging @Graillotion! Have you had any awesome fragrance adventures, lately? Especially with pepper?

[RedCoast]

Azelaic acid can have solubility issues.

Have you done a knockout test and left out azelaic acid yet?

[RedCoast]

Problem is, most fragrance oils smell “perfumey” and too much like air freshener to me. There’s only some I like.

I stay away from florals and aquatic notes in general-they’re the worst offenders.

Wine/alcohol/bourbon notes are hit-or-miss.

Interestingly, woods blended with apple notes aren’t too bad.

Peppery notes, in my opinion, smell the least perfumey and the ones I like the most.

@abierose

Are you okay with using tiny amounts of essential oils? In my opinion, they aren’t perfumey. Problem is they’re pricey and some of them have odd or unpleasant top notes.

[RedCoast]

Abdullah said:

@RedCoast i have %5 petrolatum that theoretically can prevent %98 TEWL. Isn’t that enough? 

Sorry for the late reply. Life got in the way.

No, 5% petrolatum isn’t enough. Emulsifiers will reduce it’s effectiveness, and for any occlusive in general.

If you look at any commercial glycerin-rich lotion, you’ll find most of them have 5-10% glycerin and 5-10%+ petrolatum and 5%+ dimethicone, mineral oil, etc, for an oil phase of 25-35% or so. A small amount of wax can help with the occlusion and the thickness of a lotion or cream.

Glycerin is such an effective humectant, you don’t need very much to hydrate the skin. Try 5% glycerin and experiment with a much higher oil phase.

[RedCoast]

It’s the 20% glycerin, that’s why. And the lack of occlusives.

Glycerin is a very effective humectant, but if you don’t have enough occlusives, it can draw the water out of your skin and cause dryness.

Reduce glycerin to <5%, bump up the emollients and occlusives, and go from there.

[RedCoast]

Despite their “soothing” properties, aloe and green tea can cause allergic contact dermatitis. It’s rare, but it happens-there are dozens of phytochemicals that can be responsible for it.

[RedCoast]

Dr Catherine Pratt said:

I do not know if there is a correlation here, last year I was making a childrens toothpaste with more xylitol than I usually use and I started getting mouth ulcers. Then I heard about some other people around the world that used natural toothpaste and a lot of xylitol in their formula!! and also having problems with wobbly teeth and ulcers.

Could this be a co-incidence? Has anyone had any problems whilst using xylitol?

From the very first time I used it I was sternly told that it had to come from the birchwood tree! Why would they say that?? I didn’t really take much notice but now I think about it maybe there is a correlation??

Thoughts??

Xylitol in toothpaste has been associated with mouth sores, but I’m not sure why. As far as I know, there aren’t any studies that explored that side effect.

[RedCoast]

Eh, I thought so. Thank you for the response.

I think genetically modified bacteria to break down the plastic has the most potential. Some scientist was saying that it would take 10-15 years to bring it to market, but I’m skeptical… just how many times have we heard some technological innovation was just around the corner? I shudder to think of the red tape and the startup costs for that.

Do you know if partnering up with TerraCycle is a viable option for cosmetics? I could imagine some regulations preventing those plastics from being fully recycled.

[RedCoast]

Pharma said:

I hope I find the time for this one!

BTW, just if not: What about ‘natural’ packaging? The amount of plastic used for cosmetics and toiletry is horrendous and less than 1/10 is recycled (in the US). How much does the packaging compared to the petrochemistry within a product contribute to the overall ‘synthetics’ of a cosmetic product?

Did you know that, were we able to replace all plastic we produce every year with plant based materials such as hemp fibres, then we’d have to, at a full conversion ratio of fibre to ‘eco-plastic’, grow hemp on half the agricultural area of whole Europe.

If we could for example use canola oil instead of crude oil at a 1:1 conversion ratio, we would have to grow canola on the whole terrestrial surface of earth and moon together to cover annual demands.

Apart from this minor limitation (*cough-cough*), I’m all for sustainable ingredients and green chemistry.

Do you think algae oil-based plastic packaging is the best viable option? I know they can grow algae oil in huge pans, but I don’t know how high they can stack them, if they can at all. We’d likely need country-sized surface areas…

I know that “biodegradable” plastics have problems, though. They can potentially release toxic chemicals, and the facilities don’t compost them long enough for them to totally break down.

[RedCoast]

ifamuj said:

I thought carbomer was tougher to work with since it requires neutralisation and is incompatible with many ingredients? 

As a side question, how can we know which ingredients carbomer is incompatible with? What is ‘incompatibility’ referring to in this context? 

You can actually find a pre-neutralized easier-to-work-with carbomer at Lotioncrafter.

But yes, “normal” carbomer is incompatible with many ingredients, but you can get special grades of it. Carbomer(and some other thickeners) does NOT like electrolyes. Incompatibilities would typically mean emulsion separation and dispersion difficulties.

Xanthan gum often strings up, particularly when you use it in 1%+ concentrations. Gels can feel draggy if xanthan gum is the primary thickener.

Carbomer suppliers should give you a list over incompatibilities… you can find it in their technical information sheets.

[RedCoast]

Chispas said:

No, it wasn’t. It was supposed to be a “mild” shampoo. I got it from a natural cosmetics book (a german one). I studied chemical engineering so I know all the chemistry behind surfactants but only recently did I take this as a hobby and so I am still learning about all the surfactants. What was important to me and my family was to have a palm oil free formula and to try to reduce our waste (the first reason I started this hobby!). What I found very strange was that the components of this formula were very similar to a very famous baby soap formula from a well known brand here and so it is funny to think it can be so strong. In their package coco glucoside is listed as the second ingredient after water so I’m very shocked to hear it is an irritant.

It doesn’t take much for a surfactant to be drying, even if the formula is fine. Low ambient humidity, how “resistant” your skin is to external irritants and how quickly your barrier can recover are factors in surfactants being drying. For example, I never had a problem with a gentle mass-market facial cleanser, but it was too drying for my mother. I think one of the other reasons she had a problem with it is her hands are arthritic and she can’t wash it off quickly.

Some of the shampoo formulations I’ve seen online involved 7-10% coco glucoside as a co-surfactant… but then again, it was for normal to dry hair.

Try switching out surfactants and use the bare minimum, and go from there.

[RedCoast]

Another point to add: the usefulness of plant extracts, even when they’re in the “right” concentration, also depends on the formulation. It may require penetration enhancers like oleic acid or specific emulsions, like W/O or microemulsions, to show any good effect. The chances for a plant extract to have any observable effect are nil, which means it’s a wasted ingredient.

Regarding @Perry ‘s points #3 and #4:

Don’t underestimate those points. The push for “natural” products also simultaneously demonized “synthetic” preservatives like parabens and formaldehyde-releasers, which are the most effective preservatives for extract-containing products. So, manufacturers created “natural” substitutes, which aren’t as effective and tend to have higher rates of irritant and allergic contact dermatitis, even in people who don’t have sensitive skin. In the scientific community, the consensus is that we’re underestimating rates of irritant and allergic contact dermatitis from plant extracts and “natural” preservatives, especially in the United States.

[RedCoast]

abierose said:

Prior to becoming a member of this site, I actually had no idea that in the cosmetic chemists’ world, Panthenol is generally refarded as having little to no effect in cosmetics and since learning this, I must admit that I now have a hard time trusting a marketed product that lists Panthenol in their ingredients.

That’s because the typical concentration of panthenol in cosmetic products are 1% or less. Furthermore, the emulsion matters. Panthenol is used in Europe for its wound-healing properties, but they’re formulated in concentrations of 4-5% and are in W/O emulsions. As far as I know, there are no studies comparing panthenol to allantoin or hydrocortisone, so the skepticism in the cosmetic community is warranted.

Panthenol in <2% in an O/W emulsion appears to only have humectant effects. In this case, it’s probably on-par with (or even inferior to) other humectants like glycerin.

[RedCoast]

abierose said:

And I agree, there are a LOT of other such ingredients that have strong, and often times off-putting odors…I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters ????

I got a cocoa butter once, and it was hugely disappointing. The chocolate-y smell was there, but it had sharp top-note and a musty undertone! Yuck!

Graillotion said:

Yes!  I have found nothing like the Danish butters….ANYWHERE.  And yes…I love the oils I get from NDA.

MYO’s butters come from here: ICSC - Leading supplier of natural oils, butters, antioxidants & preservatives

Thanks for the tip! I’d been looking for a good mango butter for a while! Do you think ICSC’s butters are even better than Jarchem’s?

[RedCoast]

If the smell is too bothersome, try a plain amino acid blend like the Prodew series. You can find other plain blends from some repackers.

I’ve tried a plant-based peptide (soy) once. I couldn’t stand the odor, so I never used it again. Odors for natural/plant-based peptides are quite common! (And many other non-deodorized plant oils and butters for that matter!)

[RedCoast]

Pharma said:

Many cosmetic ‘phytosterols’ are rather crude preparations partially enriched in sterol fraction or have been diluted with different lipids to get the costs down. That’s why these are (coloured) liquids/oils and not white powders like pure beta-sitosterol. And that’s also where the big differences between these products come from and not the ration of different phytosterols therein.

Thank you; that makes sense.

And by not having it mostly Beta-sitosterol, they get to promote a “sexy” INCI name… increased perceived value and all that.

[RedCoast]

helenhelen said:

I was the same - I bought the Acai Sterols first thinking the two would be the same. But they are completely different. While the Acai Sterols is thick, it still melts quite easily on a warm spatula or on the skin with only light pressure and feels quite silky after eventually sinking in. The Pomegranate Sterols is much, much thicker. The consistency is like almost-hardened hot glue.. very firm and barely penetrable even with a warm spatula. It doesn’t really melt on the skin, you have to apply a lot of pressure to try to spread it, but then it remains on the surface as a  thick, sticky layer (opposed to silky like the Acai Sterols).

In a cream, the Pomegranate Sterols is nowhere near as tacky as when it is neat. But it does add a final drag after all the other emollients have finished spreading (the Acai Sterols doesn’t have such a big effect on drag). It is much more substantial than Acai Sterols though.. and gives deeper and longer lasting moisturisation (it can probably be used neat as a lip balm like lanolin). I find all three sterol materials have different benefits though… I think my skin likes the fatty acids in the Acai Sterols and Phytosteryl Macadamiate. But the Pomegranate Sterols definitely gives the deepest moisturisation.

Have you compared/contrasted those sterols with the “normal” phytosterols, like on BulkActives?

I just have the acai sterols… I assumed that most sterols would be 90-95% Beta-sitosterol and the rest of it with other sterols and stanols.

Maybe the pomegranate sterols have more of the sterols and stanols with higher melting points than the acai sterols?

[RedCoast]

@Graillotion

This may interest you: I found a product that uses Meadowestolide in it. I didn’t try the cream myself, but I find the ingredients list interesting. It appears they overcame the greasy/tacky problem of Meadowestolide by strategically using caprylic/capric triglycerides, caprylyl caprylate/caprate, a little dimethicone, and likely a very soft petrolatum.

Hmm, maybe I’ll try to knock off the formula myself… and have another project on my already long list of “things to try”!

[RedCoast]

Chispas said:

RedCoast said:

The pH isn’t the problem. The skin is slightly acidic and functions best if it’s ~4.7 or so. This varies by location (face vs arms, for example) but generally speaking it’s 5 pH or under.

It’s the high concentration of surfactants that’s causing dry hands. Keep in mind this can be even more drying if you often wash your hands or have generally drier, more mature skin.

Do you have access to other surfactants that meet your palm-free requirements?

Thank you! I was guessing the p.H wasn’t the problem.
I made some reseach and I was thinking about using coco betaine instead of the Disodium/Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate 28% or at least replace it partially. But I will probably try what Abdullah suggested. 

Just out of curiosity… was that recipe intended for very oily hair? The concentration of coco glucoside seemed awfully high for a co-surfactant!

If your hands were itchy or rashy, that could’ve been the coco glucoside. There have been several reports of allergies to alkyl glucosides in the last few years.

[RedCoast]

My emulsifier selection is limited, and I’ve mostly worked with O/W emulsions, so I can’t give you a recommendation on the best W/O emulsifiers.

Out of the O/W emulsifiers I’ve had so far, I like Ritamulse (Glyceryl
Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate) the most. It’s nice, silky, and easy to work with.

I don’t like Olivem. It tends to create soapy/draggy lotions and is more difficult to work with.

[RedCoast]

Graillotion said:

I have a real company…but throw away email address (long story, and I am lazy and cheap.)….and I get about a 60% take rate on ULP.

You have to sign up…and they actually do a surprising amount of vetting.

Aloha.

Oops, I should’ve clarified more on my previous statement: “if you only have a home address… and don’t have a business entity registered”. That was supposed to be the key part, but I somehow forgot to add that. Oh, well-that’s what I get for being highly distracted, too! :p

Back to your original question… IMO, getting a sample of polyglutamic acid would be in your favor, since your business is registered and legitimate. Getting a business email address would be more in your favor. Again, it depends on the company, but some of them are pretty stingy with their samples if you’re not a big enough company or you look too much like a hobbyist.

[RedCoast]

Most “prebiotic” and “probiotic” ingredients (particularly ferments and filtrates) are also bug food.

Emulsifiers like Montanov 68 (Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Glucoside) make great bug food, too. Any alkylpolyglucoside emulsifier, really. You’d be surprised how quickly mold attacks it!

[RedCoast]

helenhelen said:

 

I got a sample of Meadowestolide last year as the studies on it made it sound AMAZING. So I was quite disappointed when it arrived and it was a thick, sticky tar-like, strong yellow-coloured substance that didn’t do anything for moisturisation or skin feel. I tried it at 1% and didn’t try it again. It made the cream very draggy and sticky without having any positive effect on performance, and the yellow colour came through too. Presumably the products that contain it are using a much lower level.

Wow, good to know! I had been eyeing at that ingredient for some time.

I suppose Meadowlactone would feel just as greasy and tacky!

Plant-based petrolatum alternatives are really hit-or-miss. If it’s not the greasy, tacky feel, it’s the terrible smell… and if it’s not that, it’s the solubility issues… and if it’s not that, it’s the cost…