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helenhelen said:

@Pharma @Graillotion Thanks both. I have been avoiding nut products, which is why I haven’t already used macadamia nut oil despite its palmitoleic acid content… I am always tempted but then I am worried I will love it and not be able to add it in the final product. Apparently Phytosteryl Macadamiate (which I have tried) has 20% palmitoleic acid as well… but I’ve never got it to not feel heavy in a cream.

I am using avocado oil at the moment for the palmitoleic acid.. and it’s fine but sea buckthorn oil has a much nicer, more neutral afterfeel instead of the slightly oilier afterfeel of avocado oil.

@RedCoast I haven’t actually tried the sea buckthorn oil in an emulsion yet - I can tell even 1% will make it yellow! I should try it though…

I intended to reply earlier, but life caught up with me. xD

Keep in mind that highly pigmented oils don’t necessarily pigment the skin if you dilute it enough and add the right polymers if needed… we only apply lotions thinly enough anyway (at least, I hope so!) and our skin does have color, so it would usually  “disappear”. I’m fairly pale (Fitzpatrick II) and I noticed a slight orange coloration on my face at 10% concentration.

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@helenhelen Have you tried using sea buckthorn oil at 5% concentration? It doesn’t appear to stain skin for most people… but perhaps only with people who are paper-white.

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Pharma said:

RedCoast said:

You could get away with 10% ethanol if you enhance it with glycols and other ingredients that reduce the water activity and minimize botanical extracts.

Antimicrobial glycols don’t usually act by lowering water activity. You’d need something in the range of ~40%, if memory serves me right, for most to reduce water activity below the ‘growth possible’ threshold. Some glycols act as antimicrobials and/or preservative boosters at levels in the low % range and that doesn’t noticeably affect water activity.

 Ah, I assumed @suswang8 was going to go with the higher glycol route for solubility purposes and to potentially dupe the other popular low ethanol or ethanol-free SA toners on the market… that’s why I was a bit vague on my comment. I should’ve worded it better.

But yeah, 40% sounds familiar, and I’ve seen and purchased some 2% SA toners on the market with extremely high concentrations of glycols. Unsurprisingly, the glycol-based/ethanol-free ones feel sticky and tacky, unlike the ethanol-dominant ones.

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You could get away with 10% ethanol if you enhance it with glycols and other ingredients that reduce the water activity and minimize botanical extracts.

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Is the tea something you brewed yourself? Or is it from a repacker?

Try omitting the brewed tea.

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In my experience, silicones are typically better to reduce shine than using natural oils. To experiment, you should use a low oil phase and go from there.

One ingredient that recently caught my eye, but I haven’t tried it yet, was TEGO FEEL C 10… this is cellulose, so this would be fine for the “natural” market.

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One thing you have to keep in mind when formulating for a face moisturizer is whether you’re going to apply anything else after that, like makeup or a sunscreen. If you are, then you can be as picky as you’d like for the emollients, especially if your skin is on the oily side.

Avocado oil is shiny, so it will leave a moderate-to-high amount of shine on the skin… it may be okay for you, but if you’re wondering why your face is so shiny, it would be that.

[RedCoast]

TEWL reduction: it depends.

Mainly, it depends whether there’s a wound involved, bodily location (hands, feet, face, etc), and environmental factors, like the moisturizer being washed off.

@Abdullah, what location were you thinking of specifically? Face? Feet? Or a “general” or “all-over” moisturizer?

[RedCoast]

It really depends on the market, or in other words, what they’re looking for.

People with “working” hands (pharmacists, mechanics, nurses, etc) will want something that’s more occlusive and lasts through handwashing, while the AVERAGE consumer is looking for more sensorials.

Me, personally, it would depend if/when I’m working and what the season is… however, I think 70%+ of consumers would pick option B. Yes, you are correct that the customer wants to “feel something”…during the dry winter months! When January temps can be below zero degrees, many people with very dry hands would want something that leaves a slight residue… they want to “feel” it’s working.

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German (Blue) chamomile also very blue. Some essential oil suppliers will omit “German”, though. It’s about $60 to $90 per 0.5 oz, depending on the supplier.

It’s entirely possible you’ll have to use a little more German chamomile EO to get that lovely blue color, especially due to the sourcing and the age. Be aware that fresh/recently harvested German chamomile can have an “old fish” top note, but the smell gets better with age.

[RedCoast]

Fragrance oils can make other oils foggy. Sometimes, it doesn’t take very much. This is particularly true with fragrance oils that contain a high percentage of essential oils or is “100% natural”.

If you refrigerate your fragrance oils, moisture can get inside that bottle.

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I looked at the data, and blue light isn’t something to worry about for the majority of people. High exposure to blue light can cause slight hyperpigmentation/discoloration problems. IMO, those with recalcitrant melasma and hyperpigmentation problems, and especially those who are photosensitive, should be more cautious with blue light.

The ingredients that are marketed to fight blue light is just a bunch of fluff. There are numerous apps to help computer users turn down the blue light and the brightness in general.

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What specifically are you trying to accomplish by adding small amounts of LAA later? Are you also trying to save on containers? If so, this wouldn’t be worth the trouble. Adding more LAA over time will increase the risk of crystallization, and you could potentially compromise the formula.

Also, having different batches/test serums in their own containers can help you figure out faster (and more accurately) what went wrong during the process.

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MarkBroussard said:

@RedCoast:

I never got that far into the discussion and honestly, did not want to know any specifics … they described something that would effect the addiction when the end user licked their lips.

Once I heard the concept, it was time to hang up the phone as what they were proposing is illegal and unethical in so, so many ways.

Just wow…did you explain it’s highly illegal and unethical? Not that I think it would’ve deterred them anyway… just wondering how they reacted.

I can hear them saying it in court now: “But Your Honor, there are already ‘addictive’ lip balms on the market! What’s different than mine?”

[RedCoast]

MarkBroussard said:

My top 4:

(1)   A beauty product line targeted toward male genitals

(2)   An all-natural vaginal and anal bleach/whitening product.  And a companion cream that tightens the vagina

(3)   A cream or foam that would replace toilet paper

(4)   My all-time favorite:  A lip gloss that would contain a highly-addictive ingredient that would literally create an addiction in end-use consumers.  And, to top it off, a lawyer was one of the principals.

What ingredient was that lawyer expecting you to put in there to make it so addictive? Cocaine?!?!

[RedCoast]

Also, any formula (especially with essential oils) that blatantly ignores the IFRA Maximum Skin Exposure Levels.

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Graillotion said:

RedCoast said:

As a frequent hand cream user, I’ve never had a hand cream that didn’t leave fingerprints or smudging behind in some way, shape, or form. I have tried the L’Occtane shea one, and it was okay… I don’t think it deserves all the hype, though.

Some emollients are matte, which can create the illusion that the lotion didn’t leave fingerprints behind. Also, if you handle lots of shiny but light-colored surfaces, like polished light-colored wood, you’ll need to inspect closely whether you left prints behind.

I think getting some less glossy, faster-absorbing emollients will fix many of your problems.

Actually….removing the Softisan, lowering the butters 1% and changing the polymeric grouping made a significant step in the right direction.

Oh, good! Yes, lanolin and lanolin substitutes are shiny, which that’s why they’re commonly found in lip glosses. Lots of other natural “skin-repairing” emollients, like sunflower seed oil, safflower seed oil, and so on are inherently shiny, unfortunately. Other oils that are high in shine are avocado seed oil and especially castor oil.

Most of the matte hand creams I’ve ever tried were heavy in silicones. You may want to add some silicones found in mattifying lotions if you want it as matte as possible.

[RedCoast]

As a frequent hand cream user, I’ve never had a hand cream that didn’t leave fingerprints or smudging behind in some way, shape, or form. I have tried the L’Occtane shea one, and it was okay… I don’t think it deserves all the hype, though.

Some emollients are matte, which can create the illusion that the lotion didn’t leave fingerprints behind. Also, if you handle lots of shiny but light-colored surfaces, like polished light-colored wood, you’ll need to inspect closely whether you left prints behind.

I think getting some less glossy, faster-absorbing emollients will fix many of your problems.

[RedCoast]

Heat and hold for 20-30 minutes no matter what. Do it regardless of the emulsifier or co-emulsifiers. Also, add temperature-sensitive ingredients in the hot phase, even for 10-20 minutes, including antioxidants.

I saw all those “instructions” on one entire post.

Runner up: to prevent an emulsion from separating, add more antioxidants.

Graillotion said:

Emulsify your product with a whisk.  :#

I’ve seen this one before, too. I think some people are copying instructions from making chocolates and applying them to formulating cosmetics. xD

[RedCoast]

I’ve done food service prep for years, so I’ll add in my 2 cents.

I don’t think that bacteria “only” grows on metallic surfaces… bacteria (and other microbes) can grow anywhere they please. But they can grow on many metallic surfaces because some of them prefer cooler temperatures and/or there is residual water or food there… this is why in food prep, we spray the hot kayquat on metallic surfaces like tables and leave it to dry for 30 seconds…microbes are extremely persistent.

Remember, it is always raining microbes, and there are all kinds of microbes sitting on your skin that can be transferred from surface to surface. So, the “growth” you see on the metallic surface may have simply been from you touching it a lot. We touch more things than what we realize, which is why infectious diseases can spread so quickly.

[RedCoast]

Cetiol CC is from Trulux (Australia). Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a USA repacker for Fermentoil, either.

[RedCoast]

Graillotion said:

Hehehe….what ‘special’ ingredients?  I sent them some of my cream…and they were impressed…and now even reach out to me…asking what they need to carry.  As long as it is not totally synthetic….they listen well, totally struck out…when I asked for Isononyl Isononanoate.

I have Centella Asiatica extract on order per yours and Pharma’s recomendation…and he also had the brilliant idea (but aren’t they all) of adding Hawaii Noni (fermented) to the mix…. Talk about killing all the (claim) birds with one stone.

I made a very nice prototype yesterday…but forgot to add the candelilla….so guess I have tomorrows work cut out.

Drunk Elephant has coconut alkanes in some of their products that I want to try. They have some emulsifiers that I can only get from UK repackers. I’ve been eyeing some of DE’s claims ingredients as well, that I can only get from the UK. I think FSS should at least carry the coconut alkanes.

Good idea with the fermented noni in there! I’m not sure if you are aware of the “Fermentoil” series, but I think it’s worth checking it out. I haven’t had any chance to formulate with it yet, because I only recently became aware of its existence. It would be worth checking it out, if only to give you more ideas.

For rice bran wax vs candellia wax… I haven’t done extensive experimentation yet, but rice bran wax has a slightly better skin feel, IMO. Of course, the emolliency would change upon the purification, supplier and growing location… some would have lower amounts of phospholipids than others, for example.

Accidentally leaving out the candellia would benefit you, so you can compare/contrast the texture and emolliency. I’ve done it before and it worked well.

[RedCoast]

Graillotion said:

RedCoast said:

P.S. I love betaine! I wish it was more common in repackers… sometimes, I don’t like having a zillion different suppliers. :p

I finally talked FSS to carry it…. They have it…. If you can …. support them/it….so it doesn’t go away.

Thank you for your input.

Yes, this is my intention! I’ll also try talking them into carrying some of the other “special” ingredients that Drunk Elephant uses… several people I know have been looking for DE dupes!

[RedCoast]

Pharma said:

RedCoast said:

…I think it’s a good idea to have the Gold Bond hand cream I just mentioned as another good reference product… it’s on the “drier” side, and it will give you more ideas how some people like their hand creams…

This one contains cationic surfactants which are said to be drier than anionics and non-ionics. If you’re looking for some diversity of benchmarks, such a product would greatly enlarge your basis and give you new ideas and inputs.

Yes, I’ve also heard that cationic surfactants create drier-feeling lotions… and I agree. Every single commercial lotion I’ve used that had cationic surfactants felt much drier, even if it had petrolatum in it, which the Gold Bond hand cream (and a few of their other products) does.

I’ve had that hand cream (and several of their other products) as references for a while now. I highly recommend that @Graillotion does the same.

[RedCoast]

@Graillotion Geranium is a very green, fresh rose! Some geranium EOs, depending on where they’re sourced, smell more like lemon or mint! It’s actually a very flexible EO, and you can play up certain notes if you want!

Uuuugh… the shipping is so brutal for you! Maybe you should come back to the mainland!

Jojoba esters are supposed to be silicone and petroleum alternatives… I think the emolliency works well enough, but WOW are they expensive. Depending on your target market (some Koreans can be picky on “natural” emollients), the cost could be worth it. It wouldn’t hurt to compare/contrast with an jojoba ester-based hand cream versus your go-to blend. That is, of course, assuming you can get it via USPS.

Hmm… top 5 in Asia…

Koreans really adore their extracts, and some are more prevalent in certain products than others. Interestingly, hand creams are more varied with their extracts… it’s more of a focus on “natural oils”. But if I had to pick 5 (not quite in this order, though), it would be this:

1. Birch oil/leaf/juice (this is essentially their version of witch hazel!)

2. Licorice root extracts/derivatives*

3. Centella Asiatica extracts*

4. Fermented oils and extracts… from what I see, they’re not that picky what it is as long as it’s fermented

5. Propolis

Other ingredients that often appear: extracts from flowers (orchid, Jeju blossom, etc), camellia, green tea, ginseng, mushrooms, especially shiunko.

I don’t like extracts, either! It’s because of multiple reasons… one of them being I’m allergic to a few of them, and I don’t even have “sensitive” skin! 

P.S. I love betaine! I wish it was more common in repackers… sometimes, I don’t like having a zillion different suppliers. :p