RedCoast
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I know this article is older, but here are other good sources to consider: Close-Scrutiny-Cosmetic-Preservatives-Continues (acs.org), Identification of Didecyldimethylammonium Salts and Salicylic Acid as Antimicrobial Compounds in Commercial Fermented Radish Kimchi | Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (acs.org)
The latter article states that Leucidal Liquid’s antimicrobial properties are actually from salicylic acid and the potentially allergenic didecyldimethylammonium salt. Futhermore, it’s not as “natural” as claimed; it was derived from petroleum feedstock.
There’s just way too much misinformation on preservatives out there. Parabens are demonized, even though they are among the best studied and safest preservatives today. An overview of parabens and allergic contact dermatitis. - Abstract - Europe PMC
I’ve got more studies on parabens if you want them. 😉
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Might as well throw my hat in this ring.
I make my own perfumes. It’s my forte. I was tired of paying $90+ for perfumes with poor silage and I knew I could make what I wanted. Bulgarian Rose EO is crazy expensive, but I can still make those perfumes for a fraction of the cost. Lately, this is where most of my time is going because I fell in love with many floral EOs.
I also made my own lip balms and the occasional moisturizer. I had an allergic reaction to beeswax/propolis in lip balms, so I was essentially forced to make my own.
I’ll eventually return to my moisturizer projects. Some of my favorite moisturizers have been discontinued, and I’ll make my own dupes.
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Suppliers won’t ship certain FOs if you live on an island. Or they’ll charge you an arm and a leg for your order.
Wholesale Supplies Plus has a great selection of FOs. However, they don’t have very many water-soluble ones.
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I just looked through several popular facial toners containing essential oils. They’re primarily using citrus oils, limonene, and linalool. It they’re using “natural” ingredients like Sepiclear G7 (heptyl glucoside), another co-emulsifier like glyceryl caprylate, and propanediol.
@GeorgeBenson Do you have any other FO suppliers? Are you limited?
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No, they don’t.
1. Water-soluble FOs are mostly top notes, which are volatile and therefore short-lived. I’m into making the more traditional perfumes for this very reason.
2. Many longer-lasting natural perfume materials are trickier to handle, especially if you try to put them in an emulsion. Many popular fragrant materials and isolates aren’t water or oil-soluble; rather, they’re alcohol soluble, and can require special warming instructions because they’re so thick and pasty. This is why you’ll find excellent fragrant materials like beeswax absolute and mimosa absolute in alcohol-based perfumes. Furthermore, the IFRA recommends limitations on fragrant materials in cosmetics and other goods.
3. Water-soluble FOs have solvents like polyethylene glycol, polyethylene glycol ether, and other organic solvents. This is the only way to get some raw materials, like nerol (a fresh rose scent), to be in a “water-soluble” FO. Such raw materials are in smaller amounts, which means the FO won’t smell as strong.
4. Polysorbates may be required to stabilize the emulsion. Now, admittedly, water-soluble FOs isn’t my area of expertise; I’ve mainly done perfume oils, alcohols, and home products. However, from what I’ve understood from the literature, more stable scented water-based fragrance products require specific forms of microencapsulation.
If you add water-soluble FOs, you will need to do plenty of knock-outs.
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What about bergamot EO? (Make sure it’s bergapten-free, though.)Alternatively, you can use bergamot fragrance oil (obviously synthetic), which is a close enough substitute.
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You’re better off saving it for a conditioner, because it’s usually the last step and it stays on the hair a bit longer.Now, the question is: do you want something cheap, or do you care more for the scent and staying power? If you want something cheap, you should find a FO… but if you want the scent and staying power, you should go with an EO.However, EOs will be trickier to use.In general, spice and wood notes linger longer than citrus and floral notes.
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chemicalmatt said:I agree with @Pharma there - PEG’s rock for SalAc solubility. I wonder why so many formulators ignore that? “Fear of PEG” perhaps?
Many consumers don’t trust PEGs for several reasons.Some prominent beauty bloggers think that PEGs “mess up” the immune system and that they contain carcinogens.Other consumers take issue with them because they “aren’t sustainable” (because they contain petrolatum derivatives) and that they cause allergies.Chemophobia rears its ugly head again. -
PhilGeis said:Do you guys get much analytical composition data with your essential oils?
Yes, I do. The reputable suppliers will provide all the necessary documents right on the front page. I get most of my EOs via Eden Botanicals and Whole Sale Supplies Plus.
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Yes, some essential oils are actually clear, but it depends on the location (where it was grown) and how it was processed.Lavender EOs are really fun to use, especially when you get the more unusual varieties… Seville lavender is my favorite of the lavenders, because it’s so different. Think lavender + mixture of wine and tray of dried fruits. Very interesting to work with.Pure essential oils are very pricey, and it’s the norm for liters (of EOs in general) to run into the hundreds of $. Some lavenders are “cheap”, but it does depend on the “type”: relevant certifications (organic, Ecocert, etc), growing location (some countries just simply produce better lavenders than others), and how it was processed.
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Under very specific circumstances, certain fractions and antioxidants from vegetable oils may “boost” SPF. Note that I said may.The studies I looked at involved nanoencapsulation of vegetable oils (in a hydrogel base), and some of them were specific antioxidants like oryzanol.Not all of these were scientifically sound. Many of them measured SPF in vitro or on mice. These results are obviously not the same as having a conventional sunscreen formulation (but formulated with these oils) applied to human skin.Basically, these studies are in the early stages and we can’t draw any solid conclusions from them.So, if you see blogs claim certain oils “naturally” have a SPF of 7 or 30… these are huge misinterpretations of those studies. You can’t just throw these oils into a sunscreen formulation and expect it to work, especially without testing.
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Did you ever try Ecogel (from Lucas Meyer) yet?Not a quick-break, but it is a gel-cream texture and has a high resistance to electrolytes.But geez, it’s pricey!
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Graillotion said:I have been looking at PCA…but it likes to interfere with other ingredients I like to use.When I first started formulating, I used sodium PCA in high concentrations… but I didn’t realize that it was an electrolyte, and not all emulsifiers and thickeners tolerate electrolytes. So that led to some interesting failures.Montanov 82 is resistant to electrolytes, but you might have a harder time finding other cost-effective ones based on where you live.
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I can think of several questions:
- Whether applying antioxidant serums before applying sunscreen actually slows down skin aging/sun damage.
- Whether adding antioxidants in sunscreens helps slow down skin aging/sun damage.
- Whether applying antioxidants twice a day is even sufficient. It’s entirely possible the antioxidant “network” could get exhausted. It may be 3-4x a day (or more) for maximum benefits.
- Whether applying antioxidants even “works” at all, and if so, would the formulation be too difficult/time-consuming to use or apply?
- Whether ceramides in micro- or nanoemulsions (with or without other sufficient penetration enhancers) would actually help those with atopic dermatitis and other skin conditions… and whether they are still inferior to petrolatum and other well-established ingredients.
Okay… maybe they’re not basic questions, but this is something that’s been bugging me for a while. Particularly since Skinceuticals released their Vitamin C serum.
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Here are some of the studies:
An article on trimethylglycine. This was done by the manufacturer, so take the results with a grain of salt: https://www.personalcaremagazine.com/story/7496/betaine-trimethyl-glycine-a-review
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The only amino acids I’ve seen with any sort of data on barrier repair are:
- Proline
- Arginine
- Glycine
However, some of these were amino acid derivatives (especially trimethylglycine) and applied in fairly high concentrations, like 2% or more. But these kinds of studies are very scarce.
There are glycine derivatives (like capryloyl glycine) that is used to enhance preservation.Amino acids in cosmetics are mostly claims ingredients. I often see smaller cosmetic brands using the Prodew series. If you scrutinize the Prodew data, betaine and sodium PCA are doing most of the humectant/moisturizing effects, because many of those amino acids in those blends are in trace amounts.Slowly but surely, I’m seeing arginine as a pH adjuster in some AHA serums, because now there’s the misconception that sodium hydroxide is dangerous for your skin. There’s a certain highly misinformed and shady skinfluencer you can thank for that.There is some interest in arginine in diabetic foot creams… arginine is a precursor to urea, and that amino acid (topically applied) supposedly increases blood flow in diabetic skin, but there’s not much hard data to support that.Now, for moisturizing effects… no one is really sure if they’re better/superior than other humectants, like glycerin. However, trimethylglycine (betaine) and some other amino acids don’t feel as sticky or tacky as glycerin, so I occasionally see them as supplementary humectants to “high humectant” blends. I can also confirm, via basic experiments, that trimethylglycine feels better on the skin than glycerin. -
Where is your emulsifier? That glycerin will eventually seperate, and beeswax is not an emulsifier.Do you know what the skin exposure levels of your perfume oil is? Not all fragrance oils can go that high for deodorants… I’ve seen many synthetic ones with a maximum level of 7% or less.
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I can give you some guidance on this, because your question does relate to perfume oils, which I make.Having a “quick absorption rate” is very much subjective. Some people think that having a dry after-feel means it’s “quick”, while others think that the oil having less shine after 10-30 minutes after application means it “absorbed quickly” even if they can feel a thick film. Furthermore, there are actual cultural differences over what “fast absorption” means, which can get confusing pretty quickly if you’re trying to sell it in a different country.There is a tendency for certain fatty acids to have certain emollient properties/after-feel, but that’s not universal. The fatty acid profile can vary (quite wildly, too) in natural oils due to growing conditions and subsequent processing. Ambient humidity and pre-existing skin conditions also effect consumer perception of emolliency.You may be interested to know that adding essential oils complicates the “absorption rates”. Some terpenes in those oils act as penetration enhancers, while others make the EO or absolute in question tricky to heat and use. So, if you’re thinking about using essential oils to add a “natural scent” to your product, beware that you will likely need to tweak your base oil.You will need a lab with the specific equipment to get an objective answer… but you can do experiments on your own for a “close enough” answer.You can compare/contrast your own oil blends against 100% caprylic/capric triglycerides, for example. You can also compare/contrast against 100% petrolatum (USP grade) for thickness, spreadability and shine. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to pick a very lightweight emollient (like cyclopentasiloxane) if you want to compare/contrast against lighter emollients.
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@suswang8 That makes sense. Keep in mind, though, you may have to add fragrance. 20% ethanol doesn’t smell very nice to a lot of women.In my opinion, the best scents to cover up the sharp odor of ethanol are green, fresh, watery ones… think aloe or agave-like fragrances. Using heavier floral fragrances can give some people headaches.
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Graillotion said:I should get my silica tomorrow. However I will have guests for the next week….so will not have a chance to play with it….for about 10 days.
Noooooo! Can you sneak a little experiment or two? Just tell them it’ll only take 25 minutes!
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The problem using kits is they can easily become contaminated at some point, whether during supplier processing or when you’re trying to use it at home.Also, whatever “good result” you get from the kit, that doesn’t mean you should finish your product and start selling it ASAP. The labs equipped for microbial testing are far better than what any kit can accomplish. Don’t believe any repacker that tells you “you can skip lab testing”!
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@Graillotion I think silicas would be a good idea, based previous “mattifying” lotions I’ve used. All the best ones had silica in them, though I’m not sure from which supplier.How do you feel about kaolin? It’s also a mattifying agent. Funnily enough, certain grades of kaolin qualify as skin protectants!
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Can you get your hands on LexFeel Natural yet?
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abierose said:Would adding Lauryl Laurate help counteract that yellow color? It tends to make things ultra white…????♀️I used myristyl myristate at the time, and it did “whiten” it a bit… I didn’t experiment with the coloration too much, because I liked the orange/golden color! Montanov L could help if the orange bothers you too much.If you happen to get a “super pigmented” batch of sea buckthorn oil, you will likely needreduce the percentage or change up your other ingredients a bit.
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It will never cease to amaze me how some consumers will balk at parabens for being “dangerous chemicals”, but won’t have any hesitation in slathering essential oils, which have hundreds of terpenes and the same kind of chemicals that have oh-so-scary effects in poorly done or horribly interpreted lab studies. ????♂️