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Hi guys!

An update: two years trying to replicate something similar to this bench and nothing until now! More than one formulator… experient ones, with many years in multinationals etc.

All formulatos when they see the product they say it’s not difficult to make at all. But when they start a lot of problems happen.

For instance: in one protototype they can make something so thicky like the bench, but then it doesn’t spread so well like the bench.

In another one the phases separate in two weeks. Then they make another product with the same stability of the bench, but smells bad (the bench has any bad odor).

If the prototype spreads so well, then it’s much “thiner”.

A lot of protypes gain granules as well.

Just some examples of problems that occur with the protypes. There’s also rolling an others.

Almost 100 prototypes already.

[pma]

Japan: Anti-caking agents, fillers, colorants, opacifiers, lubricants.

But I’m not sure if it’s a regulatory classification. I don’t think there is regulatory classification for mica in Japan.

[pma]

Good luck trying to replicate Japanese cleansing oils… According to my experience it’s very hard even when INCI list seems to be very simple. There’s always a detail very hard to achive (eg.: any bad odor even if you use the same INCI). Japanese companies are very skilled with more complex emulsions like bicontinuous microemulsions (many Japanese cleansing oils are that type of microemulsions).

[pma]

Now I smelled again and both seem to have almost the same intensity of odor. ????

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Everything that looks “active” in the point of view of the consumer. “Just” guar or PLQ unfortunately aren’t a “active” in the mind of the consumer. But “guar honey” is in their mind.

In the past I used only useful ingredients and it didn’t work. Consumers said it was a “poor” formula (it was the most expensive i the market for soap haha, lots of really expensive surfactants, etc.). But when it gained some “actives” it really worked for sales.

[pma]

Thank you again for your explanation, I understood perfectly now.

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Hi Fareloz!

Thank you so much for helping me!

I see you’re right because the numbers are obviously working, but I’m not sure if I understood how you got the values for x, y and z (even with the fact I’m seeing the numbers are correct). Can you explain me a bit more?

[pma]

ngarayeva001 said:

I had two, one has already been solved, and another is semi-solved.

1) I desperately wanted to reverse engineer my favourite make up removing balm, which is banila clean it zero:

https://incidecoder.com/products/banila-co-clean-it-zero-original 

many brands have similar products, but there is nothing like banila. My biggest challenge was the availability of the ingredients. After 4 years of trial and error (and definitely over 50 attempts), I finally found low melting point synthetic wax and PEG-10 isostearate. Once I had the right ingredients, it worked after a second attempt.

I did it over 50 times, so you don’t have to:

Ethylhexyl Palmitate	36.00%
Cetyl Ethylhexanoate	35.00%
PEG-20 Glyceryl Triisostearate	12.00%
PEG-10 Isostearate	10.00%
Synthetic Wax	7.00%

2) The second is the stability of my foundations (and W/Si, W/O in general). Here are a couple of tricks that I learned:
- use several emulsifiers
- oil phase stabiliser is not optional, it’s a must
- repeating common knowledge, the electrolyte in the water phase is a must
- the type of oil matters
- the process matters a lot! It depends on the emulsifier, but in most cases, water is to be added to the oil phase by drops under low-shear mixing, and then it should be exposed to high shear to reduce the size of droplets.
- professional chemists with access to a lab will throw rotten eggs at me, but I am saying it anyway: you don’t need a homogenizer to make a foundation (w/o, w/si). A 600W stick blender will do. An overhead stirrer is a must, though. 
- if you want to invest money in something related to w/o, buy a decent microscope to see the shape of droplets. That’s a good predictor of stability in the absence of a lab to run a proper stability test.
- do not add preservatives in the end! It makes no sense, as water is an internal phase!
- PEG-10 dimethicone and ABIL WE 09 MB are amazing
- Stearyl dimethicone (as a stabiliser) = improved aesthetics (IMHO)

Similar issue here…

Best selling Asian products can be really hard to reproduce in general because they use a lot of exclusive raw materias. Many Asian companies like Shiseido, Amorepacific etc. create even their own emulsufiers, emmolients etc.

PEG-10 isostearate isn’t exclusive, but I think I can’t find ir in my country and that emulsufier has unique advantages. Which brand of that emulsifier are you using?

[pma]

Shiseido Benefiance Eye Cream 

water(aqua/eau), hydrogenated polydecene, glycerin, mineral oil(paraffinum liquidum/huile minerale), petrolatum, butylene glycol, paraffin, polyglyceryl-2 diisostearate, squalene, glyceryl oleate, sodium pca, glutamic acid, dipropylene glycol, carnosine, beeswax(cera alba/cire d’abeille), microcrystalline wax(cera microcristallina/cire microcristalline), sodium hydroxide, alcohol, polyethylene, methylparaben, tocopheryl acetate, ethylparaben, phytosteryl/octyldodecyl lauroyl glutamate, fragrance (parfum), trisodium edta, tocopherol, sodium metabisulfite, caffeine, iron oxides (ci 77492), peg/ppg-14/7 dimethyl ether, ppg-3 dipivalate, linalool, llimonene, sapindus mukorossi peel extract, citronellol, uncaria gambir extract, geraniol, angelica keiskei leaf/stem extract, alpha-isomethyl ionone, sanguisorba officinalis root extract, crataegus monogyna flower extract, camellia sinensis leaf extract, sodium acetylated hyaluronate, hydroxyproline, iron oxides (ci 77491), citrus junos seed extract, cinnamomum cassia bark extract, ziziphus jujuba fruit extract, chlorella vulgaris extract, eucheuma serra/grateloupia sparsa/saccharina angustata/ulva linza/undaria pinnatifida extract, carbomer, sodium lactate, bht, curcuma longa (turmeric) rhizome extract, polysorbate 20, saccharina angustata/undaria pinnatifida extract, palmitoyl tripeptide-1, palmitoyl tetrapeptide-7.

[pma]

Graillotion said:

Google found this:

EPS SEAMAT PA

Technical Datasheet | Supplied by Codif

Water (98%) (and) Saccharide Isomerate (1%) (and) Phenethyl alcohol (1%). EPS SEAMAT PA is a water soluble marine exopolysaccharide with a unique and completely new structure which gives it the property of an immediate mattifying agent. It absorbs the excess of sebum on the surface of the skin and reduces shine within one hour till the end of the day. Neither abrasive nor harsh, its astonishingly light and fluid texture respects oily and combination skins. The purified active ingredient combines the effectiveness of synthetic molecules with the natural properties of plant extracts. Its high molecular weight gives it a particular affinity for skin and surface properties which are of interest in treating cutaneous shine. EPS SEAMAT PA is used in day mattifying liquids, BB creams and products for greasy skin.

It seems to be the kind of ingredient I was looking for… thank you!

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Charlene said:

clay?

Clay isn’t soluble…   You can only disperse clay in water.

[pma]

Paprik said:

To name a few - 
Sodium Coco Sulfate,
Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate
Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate

They aren’t soap…

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@Perry Texture is fresh and light and hydration is really good, but that’s it. Yes, not enough to disrupt.

Most innovations in most industries from 70s to now are really boring, they add just little benefit, if any. While in 50s, for instance, innovations were truly innovations like Super Glue. The book “Zero to One”, from Peter Thiel, talks about that.

[pma]

Shiseido has many HIPs being sold in the market since about 2005, here you can read more:

https://corp.shiseido.com/en/rd/development/formulation.html

[pma]

Graillotion said:

You didn’t give much to go by….but what about sodium metabisulfite or Sodium thiosulfate…and that whole family of similars?

I use that in a really tough formula.

Thank you, I was totally forgeting them…

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Perry said:

Perhaps I’m not understanding your question.
Are you asking which company invented a molecule?

I assumed you had a raw material but didn’t know who manufactured it. My answer was telling you one way to identify the manufacturer of a specific sample.

Perhaps, reword your question? What exactly are you trying to figure out?

Yes, I’d like to know which company invented that molecule…

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Perry said:

Get a sample from each of them with the Certificate of Analysis. Then conduct a study on each sample to see if there is some characteristic that is different about one over any of the others.

Hi Perry, I didn’t understood why this test would show which company was the first one to create that ingredient…

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Thank you all for the answers. Do you huys think can be safe to buy these bottles from China that are selling on Alibaba?

[pma]

Significant changes in the 2016 list… Now, the top 10 of the world are:

1 - L’oréal;
2 - Unilever;
3 - Procter & Gamble;
4 - Estée Lauder;
5 - Shiseido;
6 - Beiersdorf;
7 - Amorepacific;
8 - Kao;
9 - LVMH;
10 - Coty.

The Korean Amorepacific is in the top 10 for the first time. Soon we may see another Korean company in this list: LG. K-beauty is becoming really huge… 

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@Perry: yes. And the strategy of focusing on its core brands (Olay, SK-II etc.) is working, because their profits are increasing. The president of P&G beauty said it was a mistake the acquisition of many beauty brands some years ago:

http://wwd.com/beauty-industry-news/beauty-features/masahiko-uotani-global-forum-wwd-beauty-ceo-summit-10428012/

Avon, on the other hand, is suffering from a lot of problems. Some say they even can bankrupt:

http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/avon_w_school.pdf

[pma]

Now there are the results for 2015:

1 - L’oréal +12.1%

2 - Unilever +13.2%

3 - Procter & Gamble -11,1%

4 -  Estée Lauder +1%

5 - Shiseido +10.4%

6 - Beiersdorf +7.1%
7 - Johnson & Johnson -7%
8 - Chanel +1%
9 - Avon -17.5%
10 - Kao+3%

Avon declined a lot in 2015 (-17,5%/sales). On the other hand, AmorePacific jumped to #12 position (+22,8%) and LG to #19 (+27,3%/sales). 

[pma]

I´d add PPG and Aloe Vera as well (yes, Aloe Vera!). Concentrated Aloe is very irritating on my skin. 

[pma]

In Europe they have Sensai (competes with La Prairie for instance), Suqqu, RMK, Molton Brown etc.

[pma]

Emolients in general, like Cetyl Ethylhexanoate.

[pma]

I don’t know exactly, he’s a cosmetic chemist consultant and not showed the formula yet, but about 30% of Cetiol 5C, vegetable waxes and A/O emulsifiers.

Odor isn’t the only problem… the texture is tend to be matte and a bit wavy, like greey yogurt, while the bench is glossy and slick.

The bench from Shiseido and others that aren’t too diferent, like Estee Lauder, have polyethylene and petrolatum… but there’s no way he want to use that and I think this is the reason why our texture isn’t so beautiful.