Pharma
Forum Replies Created
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EVchem said:I would think another issue is hydrogen peroxide is a strong oxidizing and a reducing agent. Even at a low concentration I wonder how it would affect the product quality before it degradesJup, it’s a strong oxidant and ‘kills’ all added antioxidants plus it will greatly speed up degradation of unsaturated fatty acids (they go rancid within days).How it affects the product is simple: degrading H2O2 turns into water and oxygen. The latter is a gas and your product goes *PLOPP* like an overfilled balloon within hours to a few weeks. -
Arrowroot is very rich in starch and therefore considered as starch
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Many humectants are more or less skin penetrable and therefore don’t just sit on your skin.Hair is a different story: It contains as much moisture as relative humidity allows it to. Adding a humectant on it will result in better moisture binding. But yes, most of it will be superficial.Gotta run, sorry…
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I like sorbitol and PCA, way nicer feeling than glycerol. How they will affect antimicrobial efficacy remains to be tested.IPM is also nice and, like Glucam P-20, might actually boost antiviral activity (sorbitol and PCA might however reduce it). But this is only an educated guess!Ditch the sorbate, it’s useless (you have a hand sanitiser and if that one needs preservation, you’re doing it wrong :smiley: ). Also ditch toco, it’s useless and adds uncertainty.If you want to give your product an additional edge, lower pH somewhat below skin pH.
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A 1 M solution of pure glycolic acid has, due to the lower pKa, a pH of (estimating/guessing here) less than 2 because acetic acid has about 2.5.pKa only matters if there is a buffer present or a salt used but not in case of a pure acid. Given that you intend using diluted glycolic acid, the pH might slightly differ. You easily get down to a pH where nothing (at least nothing you commonly encounter in human inhabitable surroundings) can grow but then again, your skin might not be very happy… unless you use a strong enough dilution to get something which can be ‘buffered away’ by whatever is on your skin (many constituents of NMF buffer nicely).
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With that much shea butter, cool down speed/time and mixing speed during cool down will greatly influence how pronounced post-production hardening (may take up to 2 days) will be and also if you get ‘grittiness’.
You could add starch (the finer the better) to reduce oiliness. -
Sorry for re-joining so late when nearly everything has already been said.The only thing which doesn’t add up with the theory that alcohol can not dry skin out because it evaporates and thereby redeposits lipids is a factor called ‘user’. With proper usage, it does not dry out. There’s even a study showing that repeated application of isopropanol increases skin moisture level (ethanol did basically nothing significant). Stupid thing is that people tend to disinfect, won’t wait long enough to fully let their hands dry out (which takes minutes longer than visibly noticeable) and wash their hands with soap instead of doing it the other way round… Sure enough, the predissolved lipids (especially with products like Sterillium which also contain ‘quats’) will wash of way easier. Or they disinfect and before full evaporation put gloves on; lipids will
then be washed off by sweat and stick to the inner surface of the gloves.Once hands start cracking, the alcohol also reduces healing. Adding glycerol does work a little bit to protect skin from going into a self-destructing vicious cycle because it keeps skin a bit moist and flexible. If only those people were to use hand or barrier creams on a regular basis to compensate for their misuse… but alas, you have to think for them and that’s why adding glycerol really helps to reduce skin from drying out.BTW glycerol is a so called osmolyte. These compounds are widely used by extremophile species (microbes, plants, and animals) or during hibernation (but also for more mundane purposes). Osmolytes bind water and also compensate for water (act like if). This protects mostly proteins from denaturating due to heat, drought, freezing, or high salinity. Disinfection with ethanol aims at one thing, removing water and thereby denaturating proteins… It is therefore fairly obvious that higher amounts of glycerol are likely to protect cells from the effect of ethanol. How much glycerol is needed to protect which species from a certain % of an alcohol is a question which requires testing, not calculating. -
You probably just missed it… with all those hundreds posts no wonder.Glycerol is just in there to make the sanitiser less drying regarding skin. Meaning, it acts as emollient and you don’t get cracked skin that easily. Besides, WHO recommends their standard version which, with regard to corona viruses, turned out to be (most likely) less effective than versions with less glycerol. Here in Switzerland we use 10 times less glycerol than the WHO recommendation.H2O2 is, as stated more than a handful of times by different users, just added to kill spores which might already be in the raw materials. If you use good quality water/ethanol and intend using your sanitiser only against corona viruses, then there is no point in adding H2O2. The WHO formulation is basically intended to be used by healthcare professionals & stuff who work for example in field hospitals or if you can’t get clean water. Like if you have to perform surgery in a refugee camp.
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The first one is closer: 19 kg of 38 Bé has to be multiplied by 0.32 as you did but this results in 6.08 kg pure NaOH and 12.92 kg water .The second one is ‘more likely correct’ regarding the maths itself (no mixing up alkali and water) but I have no clue from where you got those 10%…
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The 36 you read from the table means 36 % KOH and 64% water on a weight/weight basis.If your formula calls for 36 kg KOH of 38 Bé, multiply 36 kg by 0.36 (or 36%/100) to get 12.96 kg pure KOH and (obviously) 23.04 kg water.Ignore all the other columns, they’re just confusing without helping your cause .
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This subject has been covered here about a dozen times in the last few weeks… The short answer is yes. Reason why this is so: use the search function.
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Mea culpa!Sorry, my brain must have had the hickups…. it’s not boiling point above 100°C but 240-260°C.So, I did some research: Turns out that the limit of 240°C is only here in Switzerland where phenoxyethanol is indeed not regarded as VOC. In the US it’s 250°C and/or photochemical reactions (likely to happen) and in the EU 260°C. Vapour pressure for all is well above phenoxyethanol and hence, boiling point should theoretically be irrelevant but alas, as @Perry said, there is not much rational basis behind what’s considered a VOC and what not and therefore huge differences exist between different countries/regulatory organs.Phenoxyethanol has a boiling point of 247°C. Fu#*@ ;( ;(
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MurtazaHakim said:…1. Ethanol 99.9% : 350 ml2. Chlorhexidine Gluconate: 20 ml (0.5% w/v)3. Glycerol 98% : 3 ml…5. Lauramine Oxide: 10 gm….…The product did not produce any foam as is expected from any hand washing soap……this formulation felt like a mistake. The product which I referred for the above formulation is Hydrex Surgical Scrub produced by Ecolab…
…Formulating without a formal training could be disastrous.- The product you refer to contains only 2-5% ethanol, not 70%.- It also contains 4% chlorhexidine gluconate. Achieving this is impossible to do by using a 0.5% stock solution.- The reference product furthermore contains 10-20% glycerol, not just trace amounts.- Lauramine oxide is not a dialkylamine oxide. BTW MSDS states it at 2-5%…- Surgical soaps usually don’t produce foam or if, very little.- Your formulation is a mistake not because it’s not working the way you imagine it to work but because it is far from identical to a registered, safety and efficacy proven product and you simply don’t know if it works due to lacking performance testing. One could also say that your decision as a novice to attempt producing a surgical disinfectant/cleaning product is a mistake. Furthermore, you forgot for example to adjust pH, density, viscosity… My advice: For the sake of health, leave it be!- Correct, formulating such a product without formal training IS a disaster! I can only repeat myself: DON’T, JUST DON’T!PS I hope that your title ‘for hospital use’ doesn’t mean that you seriously plan on selling your products to hospitals! Please tell me that this is a joke. -
Melcas said:@Pharma I got rosemary oleoresin extract which I looked up and it says it’s oil soluble I’m hoping that will work too. @alchemist01
It should work.
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amorical said:…I like what I’m reading about 1,2-hexanediol, except that it is volatile.
…I am not attached to the BIT or SPT, just trying to problem solve and feeling like I’m running out of options.I am thinking of hiring a formulator to help figure it out, unless anyone has any fabulous solutions. What works at 9.8 ph, that doesn’t hurt peoples skin, and doesn’t contain vocs? Anything?
Only if your AC is broken and your flat heated up to over 200°C .Seriously, it’s not a VOC and boils at a temperature where several other cosmetic ingredients have already self-ignited or charred. If you’re still in doubt, go with caprylyl glycol, a closely related antimicrobial diol with a 20°C higher boiling point (i.e. ~240°C). But again, whatever boils above 100°C and hasn’t a high vapour pressure is far from being volatile or considered a VOC. On the other hand, essential oils though having equally high boiling points as hexanediol still evaporate at room temperature due to high vapour pressure and therefore are VOCs.Why don’t you want phenoxyethanol? It boils at 250°C and, although it has a vapour pressure high enough to ensure head space preservation, it is not a VOC plus it is stable at pH 10.BIT on the other hand is an isothiazolinone and IIRC, you don’t want that in your product, do you? -
If you really want to add sodium anisate, use anisic acid instead. This is the oil-soluble corresponding acid of sodium anisate and also the active form of it.Regarding rosemary extract: Go with a CO2 extract which is well soluble in oils. Adding it as an antioxidant is a wise choice, given all the unsaturated fatty acids you have in your product.Although matcha powder is very fine, I can imagine that it’s going to be gritty in an anhydrous formulation and it will stain it probably rather dirty green instead of green as it would with water based products. I’m not a fan of adding chlorophyll (the reason why matcha is green) due to chemical instability it imparts on the whole formulation.Most if not all good and strong humectants (e.g. hyaluronate, urea,
glycerol, betaine, just to mention a few) are unfortunately insoluble in
oils and fats. Hence, I have to concur with the others that there is no point in adding sodium hyaluronate to a body butter or massage oil. It can only hydrate if water is present and the only water it will get is from absorbing it slowly from skin and air moisture. The feeling of swelling gel crumbs on your skin might not be the most pleasant… Instead, you might want to use an oil soluble emollient/multifunctional such as caprylyl glycol (which is also a preservative and therefore, you could omit anisic acid). -
@Belassi If you think your business went down the drain and you’re in deep shit, meet Julio Cesar (fast forward to 19:40) :smiley: .
I know, totally OT but still an interesting documentary I happened to stumble upon. -
Cosmetic preservatives kill at best or else hamper or stop growth of bacteria, yeast, and/or fungi. Most do not kill spores nor inactivate viruses.What is vivid-19? Do you mean Covid-19? No, they do not inactivate any viruses. There is no point in adding an antiviral compound to a cosmetic product because viruses do not grow in there and usually have a fairly short ‘survival’ time should some get in there.
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The reason why sprays aren’t suitable is evident and does not require any investigation, publication, or regulation: About 3 ml liquid/gel are required to keep two hands moist enough for at least 30 seconds. A good dispenser delivers 0.75 to 1.5 ml per pump, a spray puff delivers about 0.05 to 0.2 ml. There is no law prohibiting someone from selling a product where you get blisters from all the pumping but obviously it would be very stupid to do so. Multiply that with the intelligence of an average panicking consumer and you get squared stupidity.Here in Switzerland you’d get a hefty fine if you tried to sell an untested and unregistered hand sanitiser no matter what. Only certain businesses such as pharmacies are allowed to produce a low-glycerol version of the formulation recommended by WHO but are not allowed to add, remove, or replace anything in it.Apart from that, if you sold your self-invented derivative and even did so in an inadequate spray bottle, you should be flogged for playing with peoples lives and for greedily profiting from a dreadful situation! Unfortunately, the only one responsible for that punishment is karma.
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Sodium pyrithione and benzisothiazolinone are usually used for in-can preservation of paint…I couldn’t find much useful about SPT. Seems as if it’s still under investigation whether or not it should be a regulated substance for paint preservation. Given the better water solubility, it might be safer on skin than ZPT which is regulated and only allowed for rinse-off and hair products.Same goes for BIT. The proposed maximal concentration is 100 ppm (or 0.01%).From what I could find, both are neither in any negative nor any positive list regarding cosmetic ingredients.Personally, I wouldn’t use either of the two.
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Unfortunately, the amount of glycerol in your product is way too low to noticeably affect water activity. Had you told me it contains 20% or so…There is nothing wrong with glycerol just that switching it for hexanediol or pentylene glycol would give you a marked increase regarding microbial stability whilst maintaining more or less the same effect of glycerol. This way, chances are higher that an alternative preservative will work or, at least, that the amount of traditional preservatives can be kept low.I have zero experience with your blend. Combining a booster with cayprylyl glycol or the like and an acidic or a phenolic
preservative (traditional or alternative) is state of the art and makes total sense. It seems to me a bit superfluous to combine an old antimicrobial (chlorphenesin) with caprylyl glycol (antimicrobial/booster) and 3 ingredients which mostly act as boosters. There is not much logic behind that, if you ask me.Astonishingly, chlorphenesin is often added to alternative preservation systems (it’s also used widely in technical products and soaps, mostly in the USA). My speculation is that it’s added because first, other alternative/natural preservatives didn’t work, second, it also acts as cosmetic biocide (killing microbes on skin = deodorising and anti-comedogenic), and third, though it’s on the ‘ugly’ list, nobody cares about it. In my opinion, whoever adds chlorphenesin to a modern product earns a beating for being lazy 🙂 . Chlorphenesin should either be replaced with a ‘real’ but environmental friendly traditional preservative or one should go the extra mile finding a true alternative system combined with for example triethyl citrate and/or sodium caproyl/lauroyl lactylate for the ‘biocide effect’. -
A: Marketing (because it contains the word ‘hyaluron’, much like silk peptides because of the ‘silk’)B: The same as any peptide product, just more expensive
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For +/- identical rheology, you might want to add a bit more ethanol or slightly reduce carbomer and/or swap the base used to neutralise carbomer. Else, there is usually no real trouble.
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That looks like a list only of ‘active’ ingredients. What you require is the full LOI.Phytic acid is likely around 0.1-0.2% and acts only as chelate/preservative booster.For all the others, you could run a TLC of the product to get an approximation of their %.
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@lmosca You should try oyster sauce (the real ones with at least 30% oysters inside)! I love it and use it everywhere in the kitchen/BBQ and, from a theoretical point of view, it should be great for skin too. Flavour isn’t fishy at all but sweet & savoury.Unsure about sourdough though… when I eat that, it works as if it were bread made with castor bean oil 🙂 .