OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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Perhaps you should give an example and explain what you mean by “intensity”.
It’s difficult to have a conversation when both parties are not certain about terms.I’ll give you my guess at what I think you mean and see if it makes sense.
Suppose we have a shampoo made up of a main surfactant (SLS) and a co-surfactant is added (Cocamidopropyl Betaine). You are saying that it would be possible to make a shampoo using just Cocamidopropyl Betaine and not using any SLS. Is this right?
If indeed this is what you are saying, I would not disagree with you. Sure, you can make a shampoo using only Cocamidopropyl Betaine. There would be a number of problems with it for example it won’t foam very well, it might have the wrong viscosity, it won’t clean very well, and it would be super expensive. But sure, it can be a shampoo.
In fact, nearly any surfactant could be used to make a shampoo. But it wouldn’t be a good shampoo in comparison to other shampoo formulas you could make. People make shampoos out of soap. They are terrible to use but they will help remove dirt.
But perhaps you mean something else.
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My take - There is scant data that supports the claim of it being a retinol alternative (6 person non-replicated study)
But it got a lot of press in the last year so it can work well, at least for a little while, as a marketing ingredient.
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@Pharma - Thanks for the explanation. I’m reminded of something similar, there are those in the world who prefer film cameras over digital.
Debate about such things is mostly pedantic.
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You can find free cosmetic formulations here.
To incorporate it into one of those formulas follow the advice of the supplier:
“Incorporation- Can be incorporated into most formulations, emulsions and gels, except water free formulations. For cold processes dissolve PhytoCellTecTM Goji into the aqueous phase or add it after emulsification. For hot/cold processes, add during the cooling phase below 40 °C.”
I predict it will have exactly zero noticeable impact on the performance of your product so how much you put in & how you put it in won’t matter very much.
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Developing the formula is the easy part. Next, you’ll need to…
1. Find a place to make a larger scale batch (contract manufacturer)
2. Develop a brand - create website
3. Get some sales - create system to take orders
4. Put up the money to get the large scale batch made
5. Set up a system for product distribution
6. Figure out how to get new and repeat sales
7. Repeat the process until you grow large enough to sell to one of the big guys -
You need to use a suspending agent to get the beads to continually float in the system. (That’s why you can’t use salt as your thickener).
You can do this using a Carbomer like Carbopol® ETD 2020 Polymer from Lubrizol. -
The term “vegan” isn’t regulated by the FDA or FTC, so as long as you can make a reasonable case for why you are calling something ‘vegan’ it wouldn’t be false advertising.
Also, small companies get away with this kind of false advertising all the time. They take a risk that the FDA & FTC are too busy to crack down and they are often right (until they get fined and busted).
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@Pharma - just curious, what is the main objections to PEGylated stuff?
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You’ll need to better explain your statement to get useful responses. “Co-surfactant” needs to be better defined.
Whether an ingredient can be used as a main surfactant depends on what the ingredient is & what the main surfactant is meant to do. Also, cost & performance characteristics should be stated too.
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What else is in the formula?
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I love it when people find this forum helpful!!
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@TriciaLynne - paraben free makes no difference
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Try a a “build-up” experiment.
1. Start with your main ingredients (water & witch hazel + preservative)
2. Test it on your face to see if it is sticky. If not, move on to next step
3. Add the next ingredient (rice ferment)
4. Test it on your face to see if it is sticky.
5. Continue to build up the formula repeating this process until you figure out which ingredients cause the most stickiness.I agree with @MarkBroussard that it is probably Panthenol (1% is plenty) or the extracts. It might also be the rice protein or filtrate. You have to experiment.
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That sounds like a reasonable figure. In truth, I don’t think the retail price has much to do with the cost of goods when you start charging that much.
You could make a good cream formula for less than $2 a pound which means ~13 cents a unit for just the formula. The packaging is where all the cost is.
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The company doesn’t follow proper labeling rules, so you have no idea what is in the product. It could simply be that they are not reporting the preservatives that the raw material suppliers put in detergents like Sodium Laurylglucosides Hydroxypropylsulfonate & Lauramidopropyl Betaine.
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The only way you could get an answer to this is to experiment with it yourself. We know nothing about the conditioner and nothing about what you want, in terms of performance, from the product.
My suggestion is to start with a 50:50 mix. If it doesn’t get what you want, cut it in half, so a 25:75. If that doesn’t work go to 12:88.
There isn’t an answer here except you’ve got to experiment.
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And if it grows bacteria, they’ll just claim that it’s “good bacteria”
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@ngarayeva001 - It’s from organic chemistry and refers to the position of groups around a C=C double bond.
A pretty good explanation here.
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/organic-chemistry/alkenes-alkynes/naming-alkenes/v/cis-trans-and-e-z-naming-scheme-for-alkenes -
Of course. You can use an ingredient at any level you like (except for OTC active ingredients).
Suppliers typically exaggerate the amount of an ingredient you need in a formula. There is no incentive for them to get you to use less & lots of incentive to get you to use more.
Plus, they don’t really know. It’s unlikely any supplier has down optimization work to figure out the bare minimum of an ingredient you need to get an effect.
Information from suppliers should be looked at as a general guideline, not hard fast rules.
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@Pharma - good point. In chemistry, Lime is Calcium Hydroxide.
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Meanwhile, said celebrities have no problems injecting Botox (one of the most toxic substances known) into their face.
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@theoracle - you really can’t believe everything you read in the marketing material of cosmetic raw materials. Raw material companies want to sell their raw materials. They’ve always made lots of dubious claims, but with this push towards “natural” materials, it’s gotten much worse. Also, since they don’t market to consumers, the standards for truthfulness-in-advertising are much looser.
There is no single emulsifier that will emulsify every oil phase presented to it. Emulsification for any specific system is much more complicated than the Internet formulators or raw material suppliers will have you believe.
There’s a reason that mainstream cosmetic companies don’t use ingredients like Sodium Sufactin or even Sucragel. It’s not because the companies are greedy profit seekers who don’t care about the health and safety of consumers. It’s because the standard technologies (synthetic surfactants, preservatives, polymers, etc) work better & are easier to formulate with.
Formulating working, natural products is much more difficult than people are lead to believe by organic raw material suppliers or green beauty internet schools.
@MarkBroussard is right…the only way you really learn is by trying things yourself. But, remain skeptical & don’t assume you are doing something wrong when things don’t work out as someone told you they would.
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Honeyquat isn’t an emulsifier, it’s a quaternized (positively charged) molecule. But Varisoft isn’t primarily an emulsifier either. It is made up of Distearoylethyl Dimonium Chloride which is primarily a cationic surfactant that acts as a hair conditioning ingredient.
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Here is a list of all the approved colorants for cosmetic products (in the US).
https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetic-ingredient-names/color-additives-permitted-use-cosmeticsThe only approved natural green colorant is Chlorphyllin Cu complex. I don’t know if it is oil soluble.
None of the approved colorants are harmful so if you can get past the “natural” requirement, try any of the ones listed in the link above that give you green color.
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@theoracle - you said the toner separated on you. Looking at the ingredient list only, I suggested what could be separating. This would be anything that is not water soluble such as Tea tree oil, lime, or orange.
If the formula is separating that means you don’t have a suitable level or type of solubilizer (emulsifier). So, increase the level of the sodium surfactin or find a new solubilzer as @MarkBroussard has suggested.