-
Biosurfactant help
Hi there,
I’m trying to formulate a few things with sodium surfactin and there just isn’t much out there on the ingredient. I bought from Formulator Sample Shop and even they don’t seem to know that much about it tbh.
I’ve made a milky toner and an oleogel cleanser, both have separated on me. The only thing I can think is that I haven’t used high shear (though nothing I’ve read says it needs it specifically).The formula for the milky toner:
Water 16.30% ACV (apple cider vinegar) 15.00% Witch Hazel 21.00% Glycerin 5.00% Sodium Surfactin 0.20% Tea Tree 1.00% White Willow Bark Extract 5.00% Matcha Green Tea and Chamomile Hydrosol 20.00% Lime 0.25% Orange 0.25% Alcohol 16.00% The Oleogel Cleanser
Babassu Oil 31.40% Grapeseed Oil 20.00% Phytocide Elderberry 5.00% Sodium Surfactin 1.00% Hazelnut Oil 20.00% Glycerin 20.00% Tea Tree 1.00% Lime 0.25% Lemongrass 0.10% Green Tea Powder 1.00% Orange 0.25% Any glaring issues anyone can see?
I premixed the sodium surfactin with the glycerin as directed and then very very slowly mixed in the oil phase making sure nothing pooled even a little and both were great for a short amount of time (an hour or less) and then began to separate. The toner still works fine if you shake it as its only a small amount of EOs on top (still not ok for production obviously) but the oleogel completely separated after a day or so.What am I doing wrong? -
16 Replies
-
99% chance that it’s due to the addition of lime. Why do you add lime and not sodium or potassium hydroxide to adjust pH? Apropos pH: low pH might be another issue… what is the actual pH of your formulations?Green tea extract could, at elevated concentration, also pose a problem but I’d still assume that the culprit is lime. -
In the toner you don’t have a suitable emulsifier. Tea tree isn’t going to stay in solution & I doubt lime or orange will either.
-
These types of Oil Gel emulsifier/surfactant mixtures are tricky and sometimes yield a stable product, sometimes not.
What I have found is that they work best with oils with high Oleic Acid content and low Linoleic Acid content … ie: The saturated, solid oils like Coconut, Babassu, etc. work fine, but Grapeseed Oil, for instance will not gel.
You don’t need high shear as in homogenization, but you do need to add the oils to the premix very slowly while stirring at 1,000+ RMP.
You might try adding a solubilizer to the mix, that might help.
Also, if you are doing this for commercial production, they don’t scale up easily. They’re really cool when they do work, but I have not found the format to be worth the effort as they also tend to be heat sensitive and melt.
The manufacturer is a Japanese company, forget the name, but they visited with me a couple of years ago when they were introducing the product. At that time, at $800/Kg … it was easy to pass on using it.
-
Thank you @MarkBroussard as you seem to actually understand sodium surfactin. The usage rate is so low that it’s not cost prohibitive on my small scale but I definitely can see what you’re saying about the product itself being difficult to scale up. I would like to add a solubilizer and stick to the Babassu, omitting the Grapeseed and see if that helps.
As to the other commenters, the lime is essential oil for scenting not for ph balancing and the Sodium Surfactin is the right emulsifier for this as I am following a basic formula given by the supplier with just a few tweaks. Are you thinking the oil is the problem or these particular oils (like the lime) are the problem? You may be right if it’s the latter but the whole purpose of this ingredient is to emulsify so it’s not the former.
Also, the ph of the toner was around 6 so that shouldn’t be too low I wouldn’t think? And as you can see the green tea usage is pretty low also. -
Also any recs on a solubilizer that would fit for this formulation? I
-
I almost always use PolySugaMulse D9 … magic in a bottle … you can get small amounts from Formulator Sample Shop.
-
Thanks @MarkBroussard Looks like a perfect product for the toner. I’m not seeing any usage rates anywhere though…any links or advice?
-
@theoracle - you said the toner separated on you. Looking at the ingredient list only, I suggested what could be separating. This would be anything that is not water soluble such as Tea tree oil, lime, or orange.
If the formula is separating that means you don’t have a suitable level or type of solubilizer (emulsifier). So, increase the level of the sodium surfactin or find a new solubilzer as @MarkBroussard has suggested.
-
Try loading it in at 2% to 3% or a 3:1 ratio to essential oils
-
@Perry ok, I just don’t understand why the sodium surfactin isn’t working as described. All the literature about it says that .1% will emulsify 10% of oil. I’ve got .2% for only 1.5% of oil and it can’t get the job done? If it needs an added solubilizer that’s fine I guess but it seems like this might be a junky ingredient…
Formulator Sample Shop also just started carrying Sucragel and I was thinking of switching to that for the oleogel since this hasn’t been working. Anyone have any experience with that? -
Yes, Sucragel is also problematic. These oils gels are simply not worth the effort. Remember, reading the fabulous claims in marketing materials and actually using those ingredients to make products can be two completely different things. But, if you really, really want to gain experience with these ingredients, keep trying. FWIW: I will never again try to develop a commercial product with either Sucragel or Sodium Surfactin.
-
@theoracle - you really can’t believe everything you read in the marketing material of cosmetic raw materials. Raw material companies want to sell their raw materials. They’ve always made lots of dubious claims, but with this push towards “natural” materials, it’s gotten much worse. Also, since they don’t market to consumers, the standards for truthfulness-in-advertising are much looser.
There is no single emulsifier that will emulsify every oil phase presented to it. Emulsification for any specific system is much more complicated than the Internet formulators or raw material suppliers will have you believe.
There’s a reason that mainstream cosmetic companies don’t use ingredients like Sodium Sufactin or even Sucragel. It’s not because the companies are greedy profit seekers who don’t care about the health and safety of consumers. It’s because the standard technologies (synthetic surfactants, preservatives, polymers, etc) work better & are easier to formulate with.
Formulating working, natural products is much more difficult than people are lead to believe by organic raw material suppliers or green beauty internet schools.
@MarkBroussard is right…the only way you really learn is by trying things yourself. But, remain skeptical & don’t assume you are doing something wrong when things don’t work out as someone told you they would.
-
Upps… I thought you added lime aka chalk and not essential lime oil!Forget what I said (& can’t help you then, sorry)
.That’s the problem with colloquial language and the reason why INCI names and/or proper chemical/botanical names should be used. -
@Pharma - good point. In chemistry, Lime is Calcium Hydroxide.
-
Propositions by Wiki for lime :smiley: .BTW it still might be an issue with low pH.
-
Thank you all for the solid advice. Sodium surfactin did seem a little too good to be true…I may rethink this product altogether. I want an oil cleanser but maybe an oil gel just isn’t the way to go : ( Look out for the sure-to-come post about the best emulsifier for a more straight forward oil cleanser!
Also, sorry about the common name. I just copied and pasted from my formula spreadsheet but I will remember to use INCI or at least more specific terminology for future reference.
Log in to reply.
