OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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@amorical - I apologize. I did not see your ingredient list or your listed pH. I read your initial comment when I first posted my comment and then didn’t go back and see your interactions with all other commenters. This is why when anyone posts a question, they are encouraged to put as much detail as possible in the first comment. But I digress…
If you’re pH is 10 then Phenoxyethanol is an option.
Methylisothiazolinones work up the pH 9 so maybe you could use them.
Iodopropynyl butylcarbamate could work too but may not be compatible with your system.
Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate works up to pH 12 so that’s another option as is Quaternium 15.
Ethylhexylglycerin is stable up to high pHs but it’s only a preservative booster.Of course, none of these meet your initial requirements except maybe the butylcarbamate.
Hope that helps.
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If you keep the pH at 5.0 or below then it may be a suitable preservative. You’ll have to measure the pH though.
However, with >30% alcohol you probably don’t need an additional preservative.
Is this formula stable?
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Start here.
https://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/consumer_safety/docs/sccs_o_041.pdfThen here.
https://www.cir-safety.org/sites/default/files/paraben_web.pdfThese are the opinions independent scientists, toxicologists who have actually done research.
The system you describe might work. Ethylhexylglycerin can cause stinging but it may not be a problem.
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I don’t think there exists a preservative that hasn’t been tested on animals. Aloe, castor oil, glycerin and isopropyl alcohol have all been tested on animals.
All preservatives are vegan in that none of them are derived from animals (as far as I know).
No, the potassium sorbate used to preserve your aloe is not going to be adequate to preserve your whole system. You need an additional preservative. But without other information, it’s had to give advice.
What’s the pH?
What else is in your formula?
How much water is in your formula? -
Hydroxyethylecellulose
Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose
Carbomer EDT 2020
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If it’s an OTC drug the FDA allows specific claims as long as the proper level of active ingredient is used.
Seems like it is probably an illegal drug if they are claiming Lobelia Inflata is an active ingredient. Are you sure it’s an OTC?
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Proxel LS looks like it’s an industrial preservative and not one that we use in the cosmetics industry.
Without knowing all the ingredients in your formula, it’s hard to give any specific preservative recommendations. A blend of parabens and formaldehyde donors is the most versatile & effective and that is probably what you should use if safety is your concern. Isothiazolinones are not as bad as some people believe but they are meant only to be used for rinse off products in cosmetics.
can you have both? Avoid the things that people are afraid of and still use a researched and reliable product?No. You can’t have both. Unfortunately, all of the preservatives that have the most safety & efficacy research behind them plus decades of safe use have been vilified to the extent that some consumers are afraid of them. You’ve made an entire list of all the things you want to avoid. Well, those are the things that work.
Any alternative you pick will be a newer material that does not have as much safety validation research behind it. It takes years to collect this information & it can only be proven out over time and use.
If there was some readily available, effective preservatives that consumers weren’t worried about, everyone would be using it.
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This seems like it is a reference to food extracts. See this description of vanilla extract.
http://www.amadeusvanillabeans.com/extracts/single-fold-vanilla.phpFor vanilla extract
1X = 3.45% vanilla beans, 96.55% alcohol
2X = 6.9% vanilla bans, 93.1% alcoholI don’t know what it would be for your unnamed extracted. But look at the specification sheet and see what the % solids or % active is. That will give you an idea of the amount of solvent used.
If it’s homeopathy you are talking about, just take a gallon of distilled water, dip one leaf in and out, and you’ve got your extract. Homeopathy is a fairy tale so the leaf is optional.
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I guess it comes down to what kind of marketer / product producer you want to be.
Is consumer safety your number 1 priority? If this the case then you should drop all of your restrictions as to which preservative you’ll choose and then pick the one that is the most effective, reliable, safety tested, and researched. There are literally multiple decades of safe & effective use of parabens, formaldehyde donors, and other standard preservatives. If safety is your main concern, use what has been proven time after time to be effective.
However, if actual consumer safety is of secondary importance to your marketing position and the “impression” of safety is more important, then by all means use a less proven, less safety tested alternatives to the standard preservatives.
Try things like …
SymOcide C
Lincocide™ C
Sharon™ Biomix Free
Plantservativeor any of the other new, unproven-effective?-but-consumers-are-not-yet-afraid-of alternatives. They might work in your system.
It’s riskier and more likely that you’re producing an unsafe product, but you won’t run afoul of misinformed bloggers, consumers, reporters or NGOs and your marketing position will be secure.
Your illusion of safety may even work in the marketplace for some time. Fear marketing is quite effective. Although it could also lead to harming consumers and brand damaging recalls down the line https://www.cff.org/News/News-Archive/2013/FDA-Announces-Recall-of-Selected-Badger-Sunscreen-Lotions/) but you will be able to better market the impression of safety.
It’s really up to you to decide what kind of marketer you want to be.
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Then I’m a bit confused. What do you mean by this?
“as long as it is as least-toxic as it can be while still be an effective preservative”If there is a “least toxic” that means there must be some scale of toxicity, ergo a “most toxic.” So, if there is a least and a most, what is your scale? How is toxicity measured?
Is methylparaben more or less toxic than a formaldehyde donor?
Is it just an “unpopularity” contest? If so, how do you measure that? How are you measuring consumer familiarity?
If you want to say in the eyes of the market, then who are you talking about? The vast majority of products bought by consumers have parabens, formaldehyde donors, and isothiazolinones in them. Dove, Fructis, Olay, Pantene, L’Oreal, etc. They all use them. As far as the market is concerned (at least when it comes to what most people buy) those things aren’t seen as toxic. The general public doesn’t even know what they are or care. If you read the Internet or NGO websites you might get that impression but if you look at the market and what people buy, that’s a different story.
You can certainly claim “non toxic” and include those preservatives. Even the terrible, misleading EWG rates methylparaben as a 3 on their scale of toxicity
If it’s an ingredient that might work but consumers have never heard of, maybe iodopropynyl butylcarbamate or Chlorphenesin
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What is your standard of what makes something “toxic”?
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Get rid of the aloe, tocopherol & lavender oil. When making a functional product like hand sanitizer you shouldn’t be adding superfluous ingredients.
You should get Carbomer if you are going to thicken the product. Xanthan & Sepimax Zen are too salt tolerant and won’t properly release the alcohol. You likely won’t get the kill rate necessary for the product to work.
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One significant problem with gums and even siligel is that they are more tolerant of electrolytes. Carbomer works well as a thickening agent for hand sanitizers because when the gel hits the salt on your hands, it releases the alcohol which is ultimately what kills the microbes.
Gums and gels that are salt tolerant will not let loose the alcohol and will likely not be as effective.
There is no point in making a hand sanitizer that doesn’t work to sanitize the hands.
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These compounds may not have INCI names.
They certainly aren’t commonly used & I couldn’t find any obvious names -
To get useful advice you’ll need to list your whole formula.
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@Agate - $60 million is not large compared to companies like P&G ($~22 billion), L’Oreal (~$30 billion), and Unilever (~$25 billion). And that is just their cosmetic product sales. I would call Tata Harper small.
The water labeling is not exactly correct however it is a common practice among smaller companies when they don’t make enough product. So some of their product will be sold in both the US and Internationally. Big companies make batches for the US & batches for EU and will use the appropriate labeling for where they sell it.
There are many companies who mistakenly label their products with “juices” when they should be labeled as water + extract. It’s a shifty business practice but one that smaller companies can get away with (at least for a while).
I’m sure the hope for a company like Tata Harper is to build the brand to a certain size, ignoring common cosmetic industry rules, and hoping they’ll get bought by a big company. Then the big company, who follow the rules, will have to go through & get rid of all the dubious claims and other shifty practices and hope that the brand continues to thrive. Look at Drunk Elephant. They make a big deal about their “clean” products & now that they got bought by a big company clean is not so important. https://www.cosmeticsbusiness.com/news/article_page/We_need_to_stop_talking_about_being_clean_Drunk_Elephant_founder_on_life_after_Shiseido/162411
No, I do not believe that their preservative system will be effective. But it’s a gamble for them. If they can get it to pass a preservative efficacy test, that will be enough to ship the product. They can show the data to the FDA if they get inspected. If the product goes bad in the marketplace, unless it hurts someone most consumers will just throw it away & not mention it. Smaller companies can get away with this kind of things at least for a little while. Bigger companies would get sued.
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Their ingredient list is wrong. That often happens with small companies.
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I doubt you or your consumers are sensitive enough to notice any feel difference between Behenyl (C22) and Cetyl (C16).
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While HEC is good as a thickener, it is not as good as an emulsion stabilizer. The main problem is it doesn’t have the “suspending” property that Carbomer has. Also, it can feel slimy if you use too much. Finally, it can also suffer from the “fish eyes” problem if you don’t properly hydrate it.
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@Belassi - I agree.
But if someone is going to attempt to make hand sanitizer, please follow the guidelines by the WHO.
https://www.who.int/gpsc/5may/Guide_to_Local_Production.pdf?ua=1If you are going to use IPA, you’ll need to start with 99% active material. And don’t dilute it under 70%
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The FDA regulates hand sanitizers in the US.
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You’ll need to provide the whole formula to get useful responses.
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What do you mean by “the effect of 3 layers of skin…”?
What blog did you read?There are 3 mechanisms of moisturizing.
1. Humectants - Put materials on the skin that draws water to it
2. Occlusive agents - Put materials on skin that prevents water from leaving the surface
3. Emollients - Put materials on skin that makes it feel better -
**Don’t mix vinegar and bleach!!!***
https://www.thoughtco.com/mixing-bleach-and-vinegar-609281