OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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We have people from around the world who have enrolled and gone through our courses. Not all students participate in this forum however.
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These are cationic surfactants. They will not work in anionic shampoos. Cationic will complex with anionic to produce a salt. You will not get any conditioning effect from them. Polyquaternium is a cationic polymer which will not form the same kind of structures with anionic surfactants. That’s why it can be used in a shampoo whereas cationic surfactants cannot.
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You might try a full knockout test. See which ingredient is responsible. https://chemistscorner.com/do-you-know-the-fastest-way-to-become-an-expert-cosmetic-formulator/
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@Emna - Since you are a new formulator the first thing you need to do is to set your expectations.
“what ingredients can bring the hair back to its “nature” ? I want to bring structure and life to damaged hair , i don’t aim to straighten a curly hair or to make it look silky, just make it “healthy”
The reality is that there are NO ingredients that can bring back your hair structure. Damaged hair is damaged and there are no chemicals you can put on hair that will repair that damage.
Hair is a dead fiber. It is no more alive than a shoelace or the fibers used to make your clothes.
This is how you can think about it. Imagine you have a blouse or t-shirt and it gets a hole in it (damage). There is no liquid or chemical that you could pour onto that hole to fix it. You may be able to take needle & thread and close the hole but that is much more complicated than dunking it in a liquid, and even sewing it doesn’t actually “bring it back to its nature.”
The BEST you can hope for is that you can coat the hair with a thin, smooth film that makes hair look, feel and behave in a way that it would if it weren’t damaged. The best ingredients to achieve this goal are silicones like Dimethicone.
But if you are following a “natural” formulating strategy your choices are less effective and more limited. The proteins do have the potential to form a film although since these ingredients are water soluble, when you rinse your hair you’ll lose much of the film. You might experiment with other hydrolyzed proteins.
Coconut oil will penetrate the fiber slightly so that can help improve the fiber flexibility. Lexfeel may give a decent feel but some people may find it heavy on hair. Plus it might make hair fibers stick together. So will the Shea Butter.
In my experience Panthenol has no positive impact on hair. It’s a humectant and since you’ve got glycerin in there, you will see no additional benefit from panthenol. In the cosmetic business, panthenol is used only as a claims ingredient & no benefit is ever expected from it. Raw material suppliers will tell you a different story, but I know many formulas on the market right now use panthenol at levels of 0.1% or less because it’s expensive and has no real, noticeable effect.
Of all the things in this formula, your quat will be the main conditioning ingredient. The one you have chosen is not a particularly good one (in terms of performance). You would have a more effective product if you chose something like Stearalkonium Chloride or Cetrimonium Chloride or even Behentrimonium Methosulfate.
Finally, you don’t have to leave the mask on for hours. Leaving it on your hair longer won’t actually improve the performance. Quats bind to damaged proteins immediately upon application. Oils also spread on the fiber pretty much immediately. The “mask” piece is simply a gimmick that makes people feel like they are doing something special.
Ultimately, you have to decide what type of formulator you want to be. Do you want to make products that perform the best? Or do you want to make products that align with your personal beliefs while compromising performance? It’s really up to you.
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@qwerty - in defense of the cosmetic industry, the products really do provide basic benefits. Shampoos clean hair. Body washes clean skin. Conditioners make hair look and feel better. Color cosmetics help people feel better about how their skin looks. Skin moisturizers make skin look and feel better. Fragrances make people smell better.
The biggest problem cosmetic marketers face is that everyone’s product can provide these basic benefits. There may be aesthetic differences that make individuals prefer one product over another, but there are no universal benefits on which products can compete. Except price of course, and almost no one wants to be in a business where you’re trying to make your product cheaper and cheaper.
Since companies are not able to set themselves apart on performance or benefits, they can then only compete on the stories they tell consumers. There are some stories that are much more effective at convincing consumers to buy than other.
One type of story is the “hero ingredient” story. You pick some ingredient (niacinamide, vitamin C, hyaluronic acid, CBD, bakochiol, retinol, any number of natural extracts) and you claim that your product provides superior benefits because of this ingredient. The reality is that the benefits all come from the truly functional ingredients like petrolatum, glycerin, mineral oil, or sodium lauryl sulfate but consumers don’t want to buy those stories. Many consumers want the BS stories.
Perhaps the most effective stories are fear mongering. If you can make a consumer afraid to buy your competitor’s products then your product becomes the natural choice. Fearful consumers are motivated consumers. Clean beauty, green beauty, and natural beauty are all fear mongering marketing positions which have all proven they can get consumers to buy products. Even products that are inferior to ones they have bought in the past.
To me, that is the most unfortunate part of the cosmetic industry. Consumers now pay more money for products that are less effective, cost more, and are even less safe.
But that is what sells. Marketers simply create products & tell stories that consumers want to buy.
So who’s at fault?
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What is the purpose for adding Moringa powder, rice powder and niacinamide? What are these supposed to do for hair?
Have you investigated the safety of inhaling these ingredients?
See ingredient reports from https://cir-safety.org
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I wish I could figure out how to add a “like” button on this forum.
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@EVchem - Good question. Is Global Warming good for skin?
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What @ozgirl says. Between fragrances and essential oils, essential oils are more irritating & cause more allergic reactions.
In addition to what ozgirl wrote about the naturalistic fallacy, numerous cosmetic brands have embraced the notion and actively promote the false information. Since a small but significant percentage of the population have allergic reactions or otherwise don’t like fragrances, it’s easy for them to believe that they are bad. And negative scare stories are much more interesting to write and they get more clicks and attention. So, the myth propagates.
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What @Belassi said. Unless you know the formula, the amount that a company used to make a product is something you have to guess at. If you know information about the chemicals and typical use levels, you’ll make better guesses than someone who doesn’t.
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In my opinion, I could create a formula using just Water, Glycerin, Xanthan gum, and Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside and get all the moisture boosting benefits you would get from making the formula you are attempting.
The reality is that most of the ingredients you are adding are “claims” ingredients that are put in formulas to tell stories to consumers to get them to buy otherwise uninteresting (but effective) products. These ingredients, especially the plant extracts, are having no effect in your formula at all.
I know the companies marketing these raw materials, the brands using them, and the unwitting bloggers who write about them will tell you different, but their opinions are biased. They are motivated to get you to buy something. They rely on you to buy into the story of ingredients.
Aloe is a humectant. Glycerin is a humectant. But glycerin is so much more efficient and effective at being a humectant that with it in your formula, you will see zero benefit from aloe. Therefore, the ONLY reason companies add aloe is so they can tell the story that the product has aloe. People are much more inclined to buy a product with aloe than one with glycerin.
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@Eugene - the only group of scientists you should listen to when it comes to chemical safety is Toxicologists. Not chemists, not biologists, not formulators, but Toxicologists. You can find the consensus of their opinion about ingredients at https://cir-safety.org
Ecocert / Cosmos is not a scientific organization. They are a moneymaking operation that relies on fees from companies who want to get certified using their seal. Their standards are mostly arbitrary and not based on science.
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Sure, Niacinamide is soluble in water. As to the % to use, that depends on why you are using it. Why are you adding it to the formula?
What benefit is it going to bring to the formula that the formula lacks?
You’ve already got aloe, lavender, cucumber, panthenol, allantoin, hyaulronic acid, glycerin & a fruit acid complex with 5 more extracts as “active” ingredients. What extra benefit would you get by adding niacinamide? For that matter, what specific benefit are you getting from each of the things that you have already added?
Whenever you are formulating, each chemical you add to the formula should have some specific purpose. Your goal should be to minimize the number of chemicals you put in a formula, not maximize them.
If you were cooking, you wouldn’t add a little bit of every single spice in your spice cabinet. It’s the same with formulating. Add only things to your formula that will provide some specific benefit that you can’t get otherwise.
If you are just adding the Niacinamide for marketing purposes, put in 0.1%.
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Yes, you would have to contact their sales departments. But if you are a small company, you might have better luck working with a smaller fragrance house like http://orchidia.com/ or https://carrubba.com/
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I recommend you use parabens and formaldehyde donors.
I recommend formulators use preservatives that have a long history of safe and effective use (like parabens & formaldehyde donors).
I recommend formulators not use unproven, natural preservatives that likely make products less safe. (like many of the ones approved by Ecocert)
I recommend that formulators do not compromise on product safety and succumb to marketing whims & misinformed consumer desires.
I recommend you do not follow the formulating strategies of organic companies who produce products that are less safe for consumers.
I’m a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to product safety. I don’t think it should every be compromised in an effort to support a marketing position. There are other formulators on this forum who have a different philosophy and may provide you with more helpful advice when it comes to the area of natural product preservation.
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Yes, anisic acid is approved too. Sorry, the list I posted may not have all the most recent updates.
Here’s a more complete update list.
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There are lots of sources. Check knowde.com
https://www.knowde.com/search?any_match=true&q=Poly(Methyl%20Methacrylate) -
Fragrance oil produced by a proper fragrance house like IFF, Givaudan, etc.
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While sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate are certified by Ecocert/Cosmos, they are not actually natural. Supplies of those ingredients are synthetically produced. There are no truly natural preservatives. The other downside is that these ingredients will also destabilize emulsions.
The preservative you choose will depend on the type of formula you are making. What are you trying to make? Emulsions? Solutions? Gels?
But as far as Cosmos certified…these are your options:
Benzoic acid and its salts
Benzyl alcoholSalicylic acid and its salts
Sorbic acid/potassium sorbate
Sodium benzoate
Potassium sorbate
Phenethyl alcohol
Sodium levulinate
Benzoic acid
Ethyl lactate
Whether they are effective or not…well you’ll have to try it and find out. These things are not as reliable as standard, time tested, effective preservatives.
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Eckart sells Laponite.
https://www.eckart.net/ -
The main difference is that at concentrations safely used in cosmetics Ethylhexylglycerin is not a preservative. It will not kill microbes. It simply reduces cell membrane integrity however, microbes can recover from this. Phenoxyethanol actually kills microbes. That is why ethylhexylglycerin is promoted by reputable companies as a “preservative booster.” Some less reliable companies market it as a preservative. It is not a preservative.
Here is a good study which looks at the mechanism of action of ethylhexylglycerin and how it boosts the effects of phenoxyethanol.
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You’ll need to provide more information about your formula (like ingredients and levels) if you want to get any useful responses.
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Thanks to everyone who sent in questions and to @chemicalmatt for his time & expertise. I’ve posted the video on the sidebar of the forum but you can also see it here.
We’re going to host another one in September, this time with a focus on formulating with “green” raw materials.
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What does salt smell like to you? It doesn’t smell like anything to me.
My guess is that your orange essential oil is chemically degrading.
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I would say the answer to this is unknown.
However, I would also say that while research on the microbiome on skin is interesting, there isn’t much evidence (positive or negative) that you can use that data to formulate better products. Maybe products disrupt the skin microbiome. Maybe they make it better or worse or maybe there is no significant impact. No one knows.I do not think you would be wrong in formulating, if you just ignored the skin microbiome all together. It’s a marketing story which means very little in terms of formulating skin products.