OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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I think what @Microformulation is saying is that you can’t sell these products because of the way you are processing your raw materials.
“Infusing” a product with natural materials as you’ve described is putting chemicals into the water that weren’t there before. It doesn’t matter that these chemicals come from natural sources, you are still infusing it with chemicals.
So, you’ll need to be able to prove that the chemicals you’re putting in your formula are safe. All cosmetic companies have to be able to do this. How will you do that?
The way cosmetic companies do it is that their raw material suppliers have a standardized method for making their raw materials which includes chemical and physical specifications for what makes up the components of all of their raw materials. This is where the “extensive process” comes in.
You should also be listing all the known chemicals you’re putting in your formula. The purpose of the ingredient list is to alert people of potential allergens in your formulas. For example, if someone was allergic to marshmallow root, slippery elm, or burdock root, they shouldn’t be using your product. As the product manufacturer you need to be alerting consumers of potential problems.
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Yeah, saying you’re allergic to “synthetic fragrances” is similar to saying you are allergic to “all animals.” No one is allergic to all animals. You may be allergic to cats or dogs or ferrets but not all animals. Similarly, you may be allergic to one or two of the components found in some synthetic fragrances but you are not allergic to all synthetic fragrances because they are not chemically the same.
The only way you can really know is having patch tests done.
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Yes, boil, strain it, let it cool, then add it to the water phase like it is another extract. You don’t need to put the aloe and stuff in the marshmallow root mix. You should put everything into your water phase. And then you can heat it up. Hope that makes sense.
(Text probably isn’t the best way to communicate this.)
Optiphen plus might work. But you’re using natural ingredients which may be highly contaminated with natural bacteria/molds/fungi so it might not work. I personally prefer more robust preservatives which would include parabens & formaldehyde donors but I think safety is the most important thing when it comes to preservation. In my opinion avoiding those types of preservatives is more risky.
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Yes, cool it then use the herb mix like it’s another raw material.
In truth, it’s unlikely you’ll see any difference no matter how you put these things together. -
Mineral oil is made up of long chain hydrocarbons anywhere from C20 - C40 and beyond.
Sunflower oil is made up of shorter chain hydrocarbons up to C10 - C22
Sunflower oil is not chemically the same as Mineral oil.
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It will have similar properties but it isn’t the same. If you want it exactly the same, then no. If you don’t mind differences, then yes. So the overall answer is…maybe.
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The procedure you are describing is more like two things.
1. You are making a raw material
2. You are making a cosmetic formulaIf this is a product you wish to sell then you will need to keep these procedures separate. You should have a specific method for how you first make the raw material. And you should have a method for how you make your formula. This is the only way to produce a consistent product.
But if you are just making this for yourself, yes I’d just let it cool and then add the ingredient like it’s any other water based extract. Then proceed like you would making your emulsion.
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Panthenol is water soluble so it doesn’t matter much when you add it to an aqueous based formula. But yes, you add it to the water phase.
As far as “extracts have a boiling point”. Well, that depends on what the solvent is used in the extract. If it is an alcohol based extract then yeah you want to add it on the cool down phase because the alcohol might boil off. But if it is a glycerin based extract or propylene glycol like most, it doesn’t much matter when you add them. Although most of the time the extract is added at the end just in case some of the ingredients in the extract may break down with heat.
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Agreed. You should even retest if you are just changing one supplier of one of your ingredients.
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@Graillotion - Honestly, each system is different. If your formula has polysorbates in it then parabens are not your best choice. In truth, Kathon works pretty well in a wide range of formulas but then it has a problem of sensitization. The limiting factor is the particular ingredients used in each unique formula.
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If it was that easy, everyone would be using it.
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Agreed @chemicalmatt . And Phenoxyethanol is known to cause skin problems at a high level too. Also, pH can be a factor. The fact that you didn’t experience any problems previously may or may not mean that you won’t have problems in the future. Multiple exposures to a high level of niacinamide may have caused sensitivity.
It’s unlikely SEPIMAX ZEN is the problem. However, everyone’s skin is different so it’s possible.
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You’ll need to list all the ingredients in your formula if you want any helpful answers. With the information you provided the best answer I can give is…maybe.
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Yasmin123 said:How much panthenol would you suggest?
It’s an ingredient for claims… 0.01% or leave it out.
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In my opinion, yes you have too many humectants. It is unnecessary, wasteful, increases formula cost, production time and chemical inventory. All this for zero additional benefit to the consumer.
If you want the marketing story, buy a blend of humectants and put it in the formula at 1% (or less). Then get all your humectant benefit from something like Glycerin.
Why use a half a dozen ingredients when one will do?
Don’t consumers want more simple ingredient listings?
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@Abdullah - Thanks for letting me know. Yes, we’re just waiting for Google to re-index the web pages. Since the link changed Google bots got a bit confused.
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I think you have a misconception about what the CMC means. It is simply the lowest concentration of a surfactant system before micelles are created. However, just because some surfactant molecules assemble themselves in the form of micelles that doesn’t mean there aren’t any free surfactant molecules (you called monomers) floating around.
This video gives a visualization of what is happening on a molecular scale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn4Cjcc5fxw But the point is micelles are only a temporary state for any single molecule.1. No point exists to achieve what you’re asking.
2. Yes, you can use just SCI. Because using SCI alone is more irritating than using it with a secondary surfactant. I’m not certain how it affects micelle shape but more surfactant probably leads to larger micelles. But it depends on the packing so I don’t really know about these two surfactants.
3. Yes. But it would be expensive and wouldn’t work as well as standard shampoos.
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@PhilGeis - interesting.
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Also, anti acne products in the US are regulated by the FDA as OTC drugs. Patented ingredients (even if they claim anti acne) cannot be used as the anti-acne active. Only ingredients approved on the OTC monograph can be used as the active ingredient in anti-acne products. Other ingredients can be used but no anti-acne claims can be made.
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You’ll need to be more specific to get useful answers. The answer could be Yes, No, or Maybe
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Also, if you are going to make any claims about what the product does you’ll need to conduct tests to prove you are not lying.
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@PhilGeis - Agreed. So someone can buy a product, not open it for 10 years and it’s supposed to still last just as long? Sure.
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“Are there any resources or recommendations for small fragrance houses on here?”
Not really but it depends on where you live. Check out the Buyer’s Guide at happi.com You can find fragrance houses near you. I haven’t investigated all of them so I don’t know who would be best to work with.
“Also, you say you generally think synthetic fragrances is better to use, I guess because they can be formulated to be as non-reactive as possible whereas you can’t quite easily make modifications to natural fragrances while keeping them natural? Do you think people with sensitive skin and skin conditions can ever safely use products with synthetic fragrance with no issues? Maybe if it’s very lightly scented and the fragrance is included at a very small percentage?”
I think synthetic fragrances are superior for the following reasons.1. They contain less allergens. Plants evolved to produce molecules that would attract or repel animals (like humans). That’s why most of the sensitizing ingredients are natural molecules. Since our bodies have not been exposed to most synthetic molecules over the centuries, we generally don’t have any reaction to them.
2. They are more consistent. Synthetic fragrances can be made exactly the same way every time. The composition of natural based fragrances depends on a myriad of uncontrolled things like soil conditions, environment, sunlight, insect exposure, etc. The plant you used last year might have a significantly different composition than the plant you get this year. So, your products may smell & react completely differently even using the same named natural extract.
3. People with sensitive skin should probably use synthetic fragrances over natural ones. Natural ingredients contain more allergens. But it also depends on what you are sensitive too. Fragrances whether based on natural ingredients or synthetics are all different. Something that smells like vanilla is made up of different chemicals than something that smells like bananas. If a person is sensitive to the chemical in one they can still use the other without incident. No one is sensitive to “synthetic fragrances” vs “natural fragrances”. If you’re sensitive to a fragrance whether it is natural or synthetic doesn’t matter. What matters is what chemical is in either the natural or synthetic fragrance.
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I agree. Don’t automatically accept what raw material suppliers say about their ingredients. Their marketing doesn’t always reflect what happens in real life.
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Yes, you could make your own fragrance blends with essential oils & other scented ingredients. Check IFRA standards for limitations for ingredient types and levels.
You can get a custom fragrance made by employee a “fragrance house.” Since you’re a small manufacturer you’ll likely have to work with a smaller fragrance house.
Generally, I think synthetic fragrances are better to use. They are less likely to cause skin reactions and they are more consistent in quality.