[OldPerry]

It really depends on the standards of your company.  For the most part, expiration dates are arbitrary.  As long as the material is within specifications it could technically be considered good.

There are some ingredients which would break down faster (like fragrances) and some which would stay stable nearly forever (NaCl).

It really just depends.  You have to test the ingredients.

[OldPerry]

When I was in the lab we used to just take VO5 shampoo and dilute it to 30%.  Worked pretty well.

[OldPerry]

Indeed!  We always appreciate your contributions!!

[OldPerry]

I have to agree with @Bobzchemist here.  In the beginning, focus on marketing. That is the hard part.  There are many excellent products that never go anywhere because the makers couldn’t get people to buy them.

[OldPerry]

@probioticqueen - I personally wouldn’t buy or recommend any cosmetic product that doesn’t list their ingredients.  Putting “proprietary blend” on their ingredient list is very shady business.

You also have to look specifically at what they are claiming.  My comments in red.

“Probiotics are well recognized for protection the gut’s microflora and supporting the body’s immune system. (not relevant to skin product) But did you know that these friendly beneficial bacteria can also help the skin maintain its barrier and function (what does “help” mean? not defined so it can mean anything) and keep dermal cells healthy?  When sprayed directly on affected area, LiviaOne Probiotics Spray goes to work colonizing to crowd out bad bacteria, fungus, yeast and other pathogens that would disrupt your skin’s derma (this is a very specific claim but no proof is given. Also, it’s unlikely as every individual has a different skin microbiome.  Also, what does “disrupt your skin’s derma” mean?).  Our 12-Strains of symbiotic probiotics spray can help the skin stay balanced, calmer and more resistance to aging (no specific claim and no proof.  How do you balance skin?), plus they are USDA Certified Organic. (this doesn’t mean much“

According to our customers (anecdotal evidence is irrelevant), this is ideal for people who suffer from roasea, rashes, scrapes, cuts, staph-type infections, nose, eye or ear infections, athlete’s foot, jock itch, ringworm, and yeast infections.  

LiviaOne Topical Probiotics can benefit as:

Protective Shield - not a specific claim. What is the diff between protected & non-protected skin? 

Antimicrobial Properties - this would make it a drug

Calming Effect - puffery, means nothing

Natural Skin Balance - puffery, means nothing

Dental Caries - this would make it a drug - and why would this matter for a skin product?

USDA Certified Organic - to assure quality and safety - no it doesn’t.

So, in my view it is a $50 product that doesn’t do anything.

[OldPerry]

Basically, there is not enough known about the “good bacteria” and the “bad bacteria” on skin. Companies are marketing science that isn’t well understood. 

For example, no one knows how much good bacteria you need or what the effect of removing all bad bacteria has on skin. Big companies use the term “probiotic” because it seems like some scientific concept that consumers have heard (from food) and generally have good feelings about. 

But no one knows much about what characteristics the skin microbiome should have or not have.

You have to carefully read the claims that the Big Guys are making. They word it in such a way that it seems like the benefit is linked to the technology when in actuality they are linking the formula to the benefit.

For example, “This formula, made with probiotics, smooths skin by 75%”

A claim like this is not a lie but the “made with probiotics” part is not really relevant to supporting the claim.  The claim is really “This formula smooths skin by 75%”.  Which is what any moisturizer will do whether it has probiotics or not.

[OldPerry]

I would add that if you have your measurements in volume (say cups or ounces) you need to convert them to grams and then do the % calculation.

To get mass from volume you need to multiply the density of the liquid by the volume.

[OldPerry]

Ensuring stability of product stored at 60C is not really reasonable. Mostly because the raw materials used like Cetyl Alcohol or Stearyl Alcohol will melt around that temperature. This completely changes the structure of the emulsion and there is no way to predict how the emulsion will reform upon inconsistent cooling.

It’s not an easy problem.

[OldPerry]

@MarkBroussard - everything you say seems reasonable enough to me. 

Of course once you sign an NDA you may be bound to secrecy about the project which could jeopardize you from working on other projects that might be similar.  There are not a lot of truly unique ideas in cosmetic marketing.

[OldPerry]

Another explanation for making such terms is that the consultant really didn’t want to work with the client. This way the client is rejecting them rather than them telling someone no.

[OldPerry]

Nothing wrong with overkill when it comes to preservation as long as it doesn’t negatively impact performance.

[OldPerry]

This is ineresting.

[OldPerry]

@probioticqueen - There are a wide variety of ways in which a company can make impressive sounding claims that don’t matter or may not even be true.  Here are some explanations for their claims. 

1.  They compare their ingredient in a standard lotion versus a non-treated control.  In this case, the lotion is actually providing the benefit but they attribute it to the ingredient.

2.  They find non-statistically significant differences. Positive results can be just randomness. Without a confidence level given the numbers don’t mean much of anything.

3.  They report differences that don’t matter.  What does it mean that skin smoothness is increased by 4.33%?  Would you notice if your skin was 4.33% smoother?  And would you notice is 7% change in your skin elasticity?

I’m not suggesting that the company is lying.  However, I’m suggesting that the claims being made are not nearly as impressive as they seem or that they necessarily have anything to do with the inclusion of a probiotic. 

[OldPerry]

Just so you know, the number of “natural” FDA approved colorants is minimal. Here’s the list of the only allowed colorants in cosmetics.

Actually, only 8 cosmetic colorants and these are not all-natural either.

Ingredients like Mica & Titanium Dioxide (so called mineral make-up) are synthesized in a lab.

[OldPerry]

You are correct. If @probioticqueen makes any drug claims like anti-acne or anti-fungal then it is an OTC and probiotics can only be included as claims ingredients.

[OldPerry]

You make good points @MarkBroussard. The cosmetic industry is ultimately about selling products and “free from” claims certainly appeal to some segments of consumers. 

I respectfully disagree that “free from” claims are simply statements of fact with no connection to chemophobia.  There are any number of ingredients that cosmetic marketers could say they are “free from” but they don’t.

For example, no cosmetic advertiser says “free from radon” or “free from DDT”. They also don’t make claims about ignored cosmetic ingredients like “free from glyceryl stearate” or “free from sucrose laurate.” 

So, there is some specific reason that marketers call out “free from” ingredients that has more to do with just what the product is free from.

I think you’re right @MarkBroussard, marketers choose to call out ingredients that resonate with consumers. Why something resonates with consumers is where the chemophobia comes in.

Marketers say “paraben free” because they know some segment of consumers are afraid that parabens cause breast cancer. They also know that the claim won’t have much negative impact on consumers who don’t care about parabens so there is no downside to using it.

Marketers claim “sulfate free” because they know some segment of consumers are under the false impression that sodium lauryl sulfate causes cancer.

And all these other vilified compounds are called out as “free from” because marketers know some segment of consumers are afraid of the ingredients.

If consumers had never heard the scare stories about these cosmetic ingredients, marketers would not be calling out these ingredients in their marketing.

@EliseCortes - you make a good point that on a morally reprehensible scale “free from” claims are similar to “feature ingredient” claims.  They are both misleading. But I do see them as slightly different in the following way.

1.  Feature ingredient claims say “buy my product because this ingredient makes my product special.”

2.  Free from claims say “buy my product because it doesn’t have a scary ingredient that my competitors who don’t care about your safety put in their product.” 

[OldPerry]

For viscosity you might try incorporating some Hydroxyethylcellulose at around 1%

[OldPerry]

For some branches of chemistry the IUPAC definitions are good.  

I’m not exactly sure what you are asking. I gave you the definitions as we use them in the cosmetic industry.

[OldPerry]

I agree. You should use the same source for salt.

[OldPerry]

I saw this in some of the shampoos I worked on. It was usually the result of the salt level in the formula.  Often, surfactants are supplied with a slightly different level of ionic activity so sometimes you need to add more salt and sometimes you need less.

The level of salt can affect the solubility of the EGDS.

I would suggest you try a salt curve analysis on your formula to get the right level.

[OldPerry]

We used pre-heated water when making shampoos but only up to about 50C. That was the temperature at which we mixed shampoos because it made the production faster.

All of our tanks had steam jackets for heating and cooling. 

[OldPerry]

You need to find a starting formula as the answer to most of those questions is…it depends.

See this discussion for more information about formulating with Salicylic Acid

[OldPerry]

Yes, you should be able to do that.  You’ll need to have a way to cool down the batch though.

[OldPerry]

In general, the cosmetic industry stays away from all animal derived products. The use of Lanolin (which doesn’t harm animals) has been on the decline for years even though it is a great moisturizer.

[OldPerry]

According to this information, you can’t get an ingredient “certified” by the PCPC.

https://inci.personalcarecouncil.org/inci-app/html/regulatoryInfo.html