Paprik
Forum Replies Created
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What do you mean by “horrible” and “not that bad”?
Let me guess, the hair feel greasy, lank and heavy?In my opinion too much lipid input.
Increase BTMS, that should make the majority of the formula. Thicken it with some of that thickener and use about 10% lipid only.Something like 40-50% BTMS, 35% Behenyl Alcohol, 10% Lipids, Vit E (do not forget that as you are using plant lipids), [Fragrance and added extras (low inputs) such as glycerin based extracts?].
Give it a try and see.
It’s really about getting the right consistency and feel. Happy formulating! -
YAAY!! Congratulations Perry. You definitely deserve this! So proud of you
To many many more awards! -
In my opinion you have way too much Tocopherol. You are trying to protect 5% lipid only. This much might cause pro-oxidation.
I would also drop Tocopherol Acetate or remove it completely. Tocopherol will give you some skin antioxidant benefits too.
Other than that, I have the same question as Perry.
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Are you using any silicone that cuts micro foaming?
If so, try to remove it and see. If it foams on the skin when rubbing, then yes, you are having too much emulsifier.However, if you are happy with the viscosity/creaminess and no one is experiencing any irritation (from anionic emulsifiers) you can leave it as is.
You may also avoid anionic emulsifier for this % lipid input, use only non-ionic which most likely won’t cause any irritation and you’re safe.
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Your essential oils can “destroy” your viscosity. What’s the % input of them?
Also, do not forget to add an antioxidant for your essential oils.
Does the formula thicken by itself when you have Taurate and Cocamidopropyl betaine and Isethionate present? Or after adjusting pH to 5 - 6?
Do you add any salt to it?
What’s the active matter of each ingredients in your formula?
Lauryl Glucoside also causes loss of viscosity sometimes. Try it without.
You can try to dissolve SA in Propanediol. (Propylene Glycol does thin out products)
Phenoxyethanol by itself is not sufficient preservative (not “broad spectrum”)
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1. Use it to gel your water phase. This way you will see if you have any fish eyes or clumps. Not that it would matter that much is you use homogenizer. This should solve the issue.
2. The best way how to incorporate Xanthan Gum is to slurry it in some humectant, such as Glycerin. Mix those two and then simply add to your water phase under low shear and you will see how easily it goes in. No fish eyes, no problems. No waiting needed. -
To add to all above:
1% of lavender essential oil will be a killer! Typically MAX 0.5% for face products would be safe.
Start with 0.1% and see how it goes. I’m surprised no one complained yet, haha.You are also mixing non-polar and polar lipids. You may get some syneresis over time.
You are also stabilising more than 20% of lipid and I don’t see any rheology modifier. Stability testing would be necessary.
I would start with much simpler formula and add actives and other ingredients as you go.
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Sulfosuccinates do not thicken easily / they are not salt responsive. You may need to use some sort of gum or polymer to thicken your formula.
Polyquaternium works great at lower % input. Not always “the more the better” works in cosmetic. If you use too much of a polyquat, the hair will feel terrible. I guess that is the problem with your shampoo. Plus probably high active matter input.
Also, you shouldn’t use pure silicones in your formula. There is no benefit to it, it will only destabilize your formula and kill the foam. Use some ethoxylated lipids, superfatting agents or similar.
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I usually recommend and use only low shear when working with surfactants. However @ketchito ‘s process should work, so give it a try. Especially if you do not want to use any humectant (such as Glycerin) and slurry the gum. (slurring the gum won’t reduce its effectiveness)
One more thing, Guar gum has kind of low viscosity modifying effect. Typically Guar gum is used up to 2%. So 0.3% will not do much.
Well, last point, why are you even using gum? You are using SLES, this should easily thicken with NaCl. You can try to increase Cocamidopropyl Betaine (again, 30% active will give you at 3% input only 0.9% actual Cocamidopropyl Betaine) to have more salt from it, adjust pH to approx. 5.3 - 5.8 and see how it goes. After that, start to add 0.3-0.5% NaCl every time until you reach desired viscosity. (max 3%. Or if you add too much, the viscosity will irreversibly drop)
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I guess you could try to solubilize the Amodimethicone prior to adding it?
And add that in small increments and always wait until solution clears out.I believe Amodimethicones are more suited for conditioners - o/w emulsions.
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Ok, let’s solve this huge problem of yours.
Your method is wrong. You need to hydrate the gum with all water available from the formula. As you mentioned, SLES is 70% active (if I understand it correctly). The rest is water and maybe preservative. There you go, available water. If you’re using another surfactant, such as Cocamidopropyl betaine, there is up to 70% water. And so on.
Here’s how to process it correctly.
Combine all surfactants under low shear with water. Once homogenous, you can think of adding your gum. The best way would be to slurry it, in glycerin (glycerin helps stabilize the foam and you can make some product story with that) for example, and add that under low shear.Don’t forget to adjust pH first and add NaCl after. Sometimes adjusting pH is enough to thicken your product.
Hope this helps.
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You should follow recommended inputs from supplier.
We do not know what brand name you are using, therefore what’s the activity or those raw materials.If the shampoo is for oily hair, use higher input, if it’s for daily use, you can use mid point.
It can be even the polyquot-7. Try to reduce it to 2% and see how it goes. -
Typically if water content (in the formula) is less than 5%, you do not need preservative. In another words, available water (aw) should be <0.6.
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You are basically making a conditioner, not moisturizer.
So better make it wash-off conditioner and follow with some beard oil.
You are missing rheology modifier for stability.
Wrong lipid selections. You want to use very light lipids, not butters or plain oils.
Look also into volatile lipids, this should be majority, leaving only a tiny bit of plant oil/heavier lipid residue. -
Abdullah said:Paprik said:I would say no, it is not ok. This would be no good GMP.
I guess you always open new barrel or packaging of a raw material and that’s where the issue could appear.
It something goes wrong, it would be really hard to know what batch went wrong or so. Contamination, bad raw material etc …For surfactants kind of often but for preservatives and conditioners not so often as the quantity i purchase last longer.
Is the change and use of new package of raw materials the only concern or there could happen a problem for the small amount of product that stays in the wall of tank for one or two days?
I wish I had an answer for this. From common sense, the leftover material should be well preserved, so it should not be a problem.
A part of me wants to say it would be ok and I believe some companies would probably do it, but from good GMP, this shouldn’t be happening.
Perhaps someone else will have something to say about this
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I would say no, it is not ok. This would be no good GMP.
I guess you always open new barrel or packaging of a raw material and that’s where the issue could appear.
It something goes wrong, it would be really hard to know what batch went wrong or so. Contamination, bad raw material etc … -
Are you saying you both are using the exact same formula and ingredients from the same exact suppliers? This also plays a big role.
Some surfactants (the foaming ones) does not work well in hard water, some do and some help the others to work in hard water.
Does you formula contain chelating agent?
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Wrinkles appear on epidermis, however the problem is deeper - in dermis. Loss of collagen, elastin, fibroblasts etc … those support your skin (like a pillar). Once you lose some of it, the skin collapses - wrinkles happen.
To prevent wrinkles or help with them, you really need to rebuild the supportive structure in the skin. With Vit A, peptides for example.
You obviously cannot use tretinoic acid in cosmetics, but you can use retinol, retynaldehyde etc, which eventually get converted into small amount of tretinoin.Funny you mentioned cutting your wrinkles. Microneedling does kind of the same thing. You just don’t cause any “serious” damage, that could leave scars. You basically damage the skin, so the body responds to it and starts to heal it - builds collagen, elastin, fibroblasts ….
Cosmetic products (containing humectants) also help with suppleness, that “fill” the wrinkles with water and make them less visible.
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Hello,
you would need to be more specific and share the essential oils.
You simply cannot mix any essential oils as some may create a horrific smells.
For example Fruity/Floral with Camphorous notes.You also need to check for safety limits at IFRA and make sure you follow safety guides.
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Ok, first let me organize the formula
water 78.45%
Carbomer - 0.05%
Triethanolamine - 0.5%
glycerine - 2.5%
sorbitol - 1%
sodium lactate - 2.5%
butylene glycol - 1%
propylene glycol - 0.8%
DiSodium EDTA - 0.25%mineral oil - 4%
dimethicone - 1%
IPM - 1%
isopropyl myristate - 1%petroleum jelly - 0.5%
Cera microcrystallina- 0.5%Stearic acid - 2%
cetearyl alcohol - 1%
Glyceryl monostearate - 2%Potassium sorbate - 0.1%
sodium benzoate - 0.2%Fragrance - 0.8%You have 5 humectants, why? Is it for marketing? If so, put them at 0.1% and choose 1-2 to be the main ones. Glycerin and Sodium Lactate for example.
I believe you have way too much Triethanolamine to neutralize the Carbomer.
The ratio is 1.0-1.5 : 1.0 - TEA : Carbomer. Keep in mind you cannot adjust the final pH anymore. Also, as mentioned, the sodium lactate is most likely making the carbomer useless.
Better pick some other rheology modifier to make it easier for you. Xanthan Gum is perfect choice. Natural, easy to slurry with all those humectants, bang bang boom.
Ok, oil phase.
IPM should stand for isopropyl myristate. Is it doubled then?
Stearic acid is an anionic emulsifier. Has a strong charge (also affected by Sodium lactate as it’s an electrolyte), so you might want to re-think that and use higher portion of non-ionic high HLB waxy BLEND emulsifier.
Glyceryl monostearate is low HLB emulsifier - preferably suits W/O emulsion. Or it can help with rubbing time and viscosity, however as you are using Dimethicone, that won’t be your issue. You can get rid of it.
So looking over the formula, you have one anionic emulsifier, one W/O emulsifier and a bit of thickener/co-emulsifier. That is why people didn’t like it.
The W/O emulsifier would most likely destabilize you formula.The 0.8% fragrance is making me dizzy
Typical fragrances input for facial product is 0.2%. For me, sometimes even 0.1% is too much. That’s where, most likely, the irritation comes from.
!!!!! Also, those preservatives can be also irritating. And they work ONLY in lower pH. According to your TEA input, I’m pretty sure you have not reached this and bang, you have contamination/microbial growth!!! . Use some Euxyl PE 9010 or similar. !!!!!
Ok, I think I’m done -
Hello Iwere,
you would need to provide full formula with %, so we can review the inputs. Imagine making a special soup where you know only the ingredient, but no the amounts and method.
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Those will create an occlusive layer on the skin that protects the skin.
Protects it from TEWL, should calm it/sooth, hydrate it, etc …That is how I would explain it to myself.
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Derma-Rolling is now considered “old” procedure.
It’s called Micro-needling now and you use a pen-looking-like device that creates perpendicular channels into the skin. (Unlike roller, that caused a micro-tears in the skin).
It basically and supposedly damages the skin and depending on the depth and the amount, it starts a healing process that brings all the good stuff into your skin such as mineral, minerals, etc… and start building collagen, elastin etc… It also allows cosmetics to penetrate deeper thru the channels.
Most ppl are using hyaluronic acid during for a good glide and right after.
Skin peeling is also common (side) effect, but I guess not like when you use acid peelings.I doing microneedling myself (on me).
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Low HLB emulsifier.