[ngarayeva001]

Guys, I am using Sodium carbomer. It is a preneutralised form of carbomer that doesn’t require any TEA. You simply put it in your water leave it for 10 minutes to hydrate and it turns into a gel. I saw it in many Chanel products and found it on lotioncrafter. It’s a great thing to use in the cool-down phase, because when you add it to the vortex you see the result momentarily, which allows controlling the thickness of the product, so I really recommend to order a small pack if you never used it.

Carbomer aside, I managed to make it work when I knocked out shea butter and petrolatum, which left me very confused. I didn’t know that oil can affect rheology.

[ngarayeva001]

I just thought that mixing oil phase with gelled waterhpase might have an adverse effect on emulsification… Am I wrong?

[ngarayeva001]

For example: https://uk.loccitane.com/aqua-r%C3%A9otier-ultra-thirst-quenching-gel,83,1,91892,1207215.htm#s=29936

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you @maria. I read those. I can’t really say whether it’s much better than propylen glycol, but I can say that 1,3 propanediol is a good ingredient in general. I used a couple of product where it’s used a a primary humectant.

[ngarayeva001]

I actually think that 70% will work. Try to get both decyl glucoside and coco glucoside. The bad thing about decyl, it makes the product thinner. This combination should be tear-free

[ngarayeva001]

An update. I did a knockout experiment. It’s not the waterphase. I excluded heavy butters (petrolatum and shea butter) and it gelled. I don’t know what to think. I didn’t know that butters can impact rheology.

[ngarayeva001]

@Fekher, do you have access to decyl glucoside in your market? If yes, try 80% CAPB 20% of Decyl Glucoside with the total active surfactants of 10%. It should work.

[ngarayeva001]

I never thought about it before, but after being exposed to all this misinformation about cosmetic ingredients I started reseaching GMO food. Not like I was particularly avoiding it before, but I heard that “it’s bad” and never challenged it. I observe the same pattern so far. No real proof that it’s dangerous but a lot of emotions and fearmongering.

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you for clarification  @Bill_Toge. I though that 1,2-Propanediol is the same as propylene glycol but wasn’t sure.

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you @Perry. This formula is what is left from the initial one. I thought I excluded everything suspicious. You are right, I will try knockout experiment. This must be something in the waterphase.

[ngarayeva001]

@Gunther, the point is actually to figure out this combination.  HLB is balanced, product emulsified well. There are sorbitan oleate, 4% of glyceryl oleate and polysorbate 20 (to balance HLB). The reason for such a combination is that I don’t need fatty alcohols and silicones for it, and (if exclude butters and petrolatum) it can be made using cold process.

[ngarayeva001]

@Dirtnap1, It’s SODIUM carbomer. It’s a preneutralised form, so no neutralization is required. And I specified that I used TEA to neutralize versions with ultrez 20 and 30. Neutralise means bring pH to 7.

[ngarayeva001]

Also it’s a good humectant and reduces tackiness of glycerin. I use it in the most of the lotions I make.

[ngarayeva001]

The Ordinary. I made a huge mistake of going there on Friday. The product you are referring to has 8% of both if I am not mistaken. Kielhs has a product with 12% of LAA and 3% of some derivative in propanediol. Propanediol is a good solvent in general. You can use it instead of propylene glycol, but propanediol is considered more “skin friendly” ingredient. You can dissolve ingredients like salicylic acid and allantoin in it.

[ngarayeva001]

@glachney, ideally all skin and hair product should have pH below 7, since our skin has a pH between 4.5-5.5 and hair even less (btw hair conditioners should be below 5 to work). My understanding is that all products with pH >9 are in that range not because it’s good for skin/hair but because there is no way to reduce pH of that particular product. 

I had no understanding of chemistry when I started formulating. I was changing firms and had a couple of months lag between jobs. And I thought that taking a $350 moisturizer, reading it’s endless LOI and attempting to recreate it was a good idea :smiley:  And then I ended up with 28 ingredients from makingcosmetics and no idea how to mix them.
Jokes aside, it’s trial and error. I analyze LOIs of commercial products a lot. Beautypedia.com is a place where you can search for products by type and brand and lookup LOIs. I recently found swiftcraftymonkey blog (paid subscription). There is a lot of good information there. And this forum is absolutely amazing. 

[ngarayeva001]

I am pretty sure it’s cocoa butter. I noticed this “result” several times with other types of anhydrous products. Also, make sure you leave the jar open when it cools down.

[ngarayeva001]

And if nothing works just add crothix liquid. It thickens most types of surfactant products. By the way, you are just wasting niacinamide. I don’t think it have any benefits in rinse-off products.

[ngarayeva001]

Oh wow… I didn’t even know that talc is in the list!

[ngarayeva001]

@”Dr Catherine Pratt” I am trying to make an oil in a sprayer bottle, that will turn into a liquid emulsion once in contact with wet skin. It worked with low HLB emulsifiers that I experimented with. But my thinking process goes like this: if I use, say almond oil that has HLB of 6, should I mix sorbitan oleate (for example) with say polysorbate 80 or 20 (I don’t have 85) to bring the HLB of the emulsifiers to 6 or it doesn’t matter for this type of product? I know that balancing HLB is not a guaranree of a stable good performing product and there are other points to consider, but since I am not a chemist, I want to make sure I didn’t miss anything.

[ngarayeva001]

Hi @glachney

I thought I am the only full-time financial advisor who obsessively
formulates on weekends on this forum. So, not a chemist either and not
particularly familiar with Sodium
Laurel Sarcosinate, but I can comment on some other points.

PEG-8
Dimethicone is great and you should definitely keep it. It does have some emulsifying
properties (as many other PEGs) but not enough to solubilize fragrance. The best
solubilizer for this purpose is PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil. I like it much better
than Polysorbates. Alternatively, use Polysorbate 80.

Tetrasodium EDTA
is better when you want to get a clear product. Also, there is no need to add
it in the end as far as I know.

The last one,
those sulphates elevate pH. Make sure you add citric acid in the end to
bring the pH down to 5-6.

[ngarayeva001]

There are many professional consultants in this forum:

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/137/need-formulating-services-here-are-some-contacts#latest

[ngarayeva001]

I have not tried mixing polusorbates with oil but something tells me it’s a bad idea. Polysorbates are high HLB. Experiment and you will figure it out. Try surfactants too (glucosides, as mentioned above)

[ngarayeva001]

Acrylates copolymer is a rheology modifier not an emulsifier. First guess -sorbitan oleate. It’s liquid and transparent.

[ngarayeva001]

It’s a great humectant and it decreases stickiness of glycerin. I add it to the most of lotions I make (together with glycerin and in some cases butylene glycol). No disadvantages.

[ngarayeva001]

First two were the reason why I started formulating ?