[ngarayeva001]

Active ingredients is a separate topic, but you still need to know how to create stable emulsions. That requires a lot of reading and even more experimenting. I am not saying that I know everything about it myself, but I learned through a trial and error. Try to make a lotion, fail in it and start reading to understand why you failed. Change the inputs, repeat. Run tiny bathces, like 50 grams not to waste ingredient. Fail, try again and write down what you did to analyse.

[ngarayeva001]

I had the same experience with Ceteareth-25, and I believe they must be similar. If you want to check if this is an emulsifiyer, try to make an emulsion with it in a regular way (put it in an oil phase and melt it then mix with hot water phase). Cetyl Alcohol won’t form an emulsion.

[ngarayeva001]

@Dtdang, I don’t want to sound dismissive, but it’s a separate topic.

But in general, you need to know what kind of dark spot is it. Is it a sun spot? Is it an acne spot? Is it a melasma? I am afraid that if it’s a melasma, even hydroquinone migh not help with and you would need a laser treatment (that also might not help if it’s deep enough in the dermis). As an example 2% alpha-arbutin by The Ordinary helps me get rid of freckles that I get from a relatively short term sun exposure in a month. Again you can’t use it as a rule, it’s a personal experience. I am sorry but the simple answer doesn’t exist.

[ngarayeva001]

@gnomebeard it is indeed. I like the idea but I think it needs some work. For example the original formula has extremely high concentration of EO, too much of Vitamin E etc. And a preservative of course.

[ngarayeva001]

I think what Microformulation says is that it would take pages of text to address every bullet point Perry listed above. This is a very broad topic. I recommend you to subscribe to swift crafty monkey blog. She explains chemistry in a simple language.

[ngarayeva001]

I would add making sure anionic ingredients are not mixed with cationic. Made that mistake not so long ago.

[ngarayeva001]

Frankly, I am just adding 0.2% of tocopherol and 0.5% of tocopheryl acetate, without a deep understanding of how they work, because I saw it in commercial products (worked out % looking at other ingredients such as carbomer and phenoxyethanol). It would be great if experts can shed some light on it. Lotioncrafter states you can use up to 5% of tocopheryl acetate, which doesn’t sound right to me..

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you @Doreen. Yes, I used exatctly 0.5%, but I want to do it right. Also, I don’t know what long-term effect it might have on the emulsion stability.

Any rules for tocopheryl acetate? I noticed that it’s used at a higher % in commercial products than tocopherol. 

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you @Doreen, I am excluding allantoin from all formulations contraining Sepinov EMT (and since it’s my favorite polymer no more allantoin for me lol)

[ngarayeva001]

@Doreen, I though amphoteric changes charge to anionic at a low pH? I used allantoin in a formula with Sepinov EMT which is anionic.. I guess I shouldn’t have done it?

Do you have any information about tocopherol optimal %? I read somewhere that it shouldn’t be used at a concentration higher than 0.2% but can’t find any legit source. 

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you very much @Perry. I know that mineral oil is derived from crude oil, I was just not sure what term to use. So, my conclusion is that if I don’t add any vegetable oils, Vitamin E is not required. 

[ngarayeva001]

I am still playing with the percentages. Made 5 batches with different proportions and still experimenting. I agree, it seems like solubilizer improves the “washability”. PEG-40 HCO works better than Polysorbate 80 (same %).

[ngarayeva001]

Sepimax Zen is a polymer thickener that can be used in extremely low pH formulations. It can be used in surfactant systems too.

[ngarayeva001]

@Perry, I just want to thank you for your advice again. I only had a chance to experiment with the formula yesterday. It is much closer to the benchmark product now. 

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you @Microformulation. I absolutely agree that skin needs more than one ingredient. I do not use Vitamin C alone, it is a part of my routine which includes many other ingredients (multiple products), and I don’t recommend others relying on one ingredient either.

Crafters websites do not have the 3-0 Ethyl Ascorbate yet. I saw it on ebay (they ship from the US), but I am a bit uncertain if buying actives from ebay is safe…

[ngarayeva001]

@Microformulation, I am not arguing that it’s a rabbit hole. I did many experiements (and our previous discussions on the forum motivated me to read a lot) on L-AA and know it oxydizes very fast. I just shared my knowledge on what exists in the market at the moment.
By the way The Ordinary also have another product with silicones.

LOI: Dimethicone, Ascorbic Acid, Polysilicone-11, PEG-10 Dimethicone.

L-AA is used at 30% there.. Not sure what I think about it, but both products are not very pleasant to apply, so I have never tried to repeat it. I personally don’t like propanediol based products either.

May I ask your opinion on 3-0 Ethyl Ascorbic Acid?

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you for the explanation @Perry! 

[ngarayeva001]

@Fekher, Decyl Glucoside can be mild in a properly formulated product, but it is not mild (or non irritant) by itself. It is often marketed as mild and if you google it and open a wikipedia page it would say “mild non-ionic surfactant used in baby products” but, it can be irritating at higher concentrations. I believe that @Microformulation can add more on this. 
Another point, are you going to use Decyl Glucoside as a primary surfactant? It is usually used at low level to boost foam (I saw it as a primary surfactant in leave on make up remover). It tends to make the formula pretty thin.

[ngarayeva001]

@O12, I might be missing something but Acrylates C 10-30 Alkyl Acrylate crospolymer gets very thick even at 0.3% (this is my experience with the product bought from two suppliers). I have never used more than 0.2%. 

TEA is a very strong pH elevator. I assume it would raise pH to not skin friendly level at 2.6%. Also, if I am not wrong, TEA is restricted to 1% for leave on products on certain markets.

[ngarayeva001]

Oh btw @Majman, look at this product! 

https://www.cultbeauty.co.uk/the-ordinary-ascorbic-acid-8-alpha-arbutin-2.html

Just three ingredients: Propanediol, Ascorbic Acid, Alpha-Arbutin

Maybe you can try to make this? Should be simple and perfect for marketing claims!

Another related topic. I recently read about ethyl ascorbic acid. The suppliers claim that it’s stabilised LAA (I don’t understand if it’s a derivative or not, becase it doesn’t have to be converted to LAA in skin). Anybody knows if it’s working?

[ngarayeva001]

I know that LAA dissolves in light Dimethicone, Propanediol (tested myself) and Propylene Glycol.
Now, if you use so much of propanediol (which is a solvent and a humectant), there is no need in adding HA. You will just not notice the difference. I do not recommend using glycerin. The final product will be very sticky. 

I suspect that HA can be dissolved in silicone. Look at the LOI of The Ordinary Vitamin C Suspension 23% + HA Spheres 2%:

Ascorbic Acid, Squalane, Isodecyl Neopentanoate, Isononyl Isononanoate, Coconut Alkanes, Ethylene/Propylene/Styrene Copolymer, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Silica Dimethyl Silylate, Sodium Hyaluronate, Glucomannan, Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, Butylene/Ethylene/Styrene Copolymer, Acrylates/Ethylhexyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Trihydroxystearin, BHT

However, even if you can dissolve it, I know than many experts on this forum expressed their doubts that LAA can be stabilised this way. Thus, derivatives are better for the commercial use. There is a very good podcast on the beauty brains on Vitamin C derivatives.

[ngarayeva001]

I am not a chemist, can somebody explain to me how can cationic gum be mixed with anionic SLES? 

Regarding to what I can comment on, gums are not great in shampoos. Poor sensorial.

[ngarayeva001]

@Fekher, good idea, I will try to replace oil with a butter that stays solid in a room temperature.

[ngarayeva001]

@MarkBroussard, I absolutely agree with you. But it’s a general trend, like when they mark vegetable oil “cholesterol free” or something that can’t potentially contain any gluten marked as “gluten-free”. It is very difficult to re-educate consumers. 

[ngarayeva001]

By the way, another problem with such balms is that they melt. I made many attempts to create a make up removing balm before. I made one this summer and it was solid in my climate (I live in London), but a friend of mine took it to a hotter place and it turned to liquid.