ngarayeva001
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Deionised water, 0.1% of aloe vera x200 powder, 0.5% of ultrez 30. Hydrated for an hour, elevated the pH to 7 with TEA. Result: viscous but cloudy. Tried the same with 0.5% of x200 aloe vera powder (which should equate to 100%), the gel was very runny and cloudy. I hope it’s helpful @AmitKaria
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I am pretty sure that you can achieve your marketing story with surfactants. Just don’t use sulfates. You will get much better product. Use ingredients like coco betaine, coco glucoside, thicken it with xantham and label it ‘natural’. It’s not really defined anywhere.
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I know only two polymers that do not freak out in presence of Aloe vera powder in a lotion: super sticky Sepimax Zen and a product called GelMaker EMU (Sodium acrylate / sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate copolymer, isohexadecane, polysorbate 80). Even Sepiplus 400 that is supposed to be electrolyte resistant tuns into water.
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Thank you @Belassi. I guess I need to try again. I left it for only 20 minutes (which was always enough for Carbomer 940 by makingcosmetics). I guess the hydration time depends on the quality of material. I had C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer powder from two different suppliers. One was self-hydrating (in literally 3 minutes) another one didn’t hydrate even when I left overnight.
@AmitKaria, I will try again today and post an update. I have a full 1kg bag of this Ultrez 30 and I need to figure out how to work with it. Frankly, I don’t like aloe vera, because I feel like it just messes up all my products, but maybe I just didn’t find the right way around it. I will try to elevate aloe powder to make it 100% of the formula.
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Classic soaps are drying. If you formulate a liquid product anyway, maybe you consider making it with surfactants instead? I am talking about a product made of SLES and Non-Ioninc/Amophoteric surfactants. You can bring the pH to 6 and have a nice foam.
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@MarkBroussard, agree! It is not moisturisation it’s less stripping. And I also agree, as a user that gentle cleanser do feel better, but it depends on the task. I won’t use a balm in the morning.
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The reason I am advocating for these types of products, is that every frequent makeup user knows that nothing removes makeup better than oil (any oil, say olive oil). But now there is another problem, how to remove greasy oil from the skin? That is the reason why no one actually uses pure oil for makeup removal - it is not a pleasant feeling. But even if you look at products that are intended for waterproof makeup, it’s bi-phased micellar water with some oil on the top that is supposed to be shaked before using. Cleansing balms solve the problem. They include an emulsifier that allows the oil to be easily rinsed off by water. I noticed that addition of a solubiliser makes is even better (but that is my trick, I have not seen a lot of it in commercial products, so may be I am wrong).
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@jeremien, it really depends on the goal we are trying to achieve. If we are talking about skin without makeup, then agree, micellar water would do a great job of solubilizing sebum. If we are talking about dissolving a lot of water-proof make up, it won’t be sufficient, thus I brought up an oil based cleansing balm.
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@Belassi, ultrez 30 supposed to be even more resistant than 20… I don’t know maybe I am just doing something wrong… do you let it hydrate? Do you use TEA or sudium hydroxide to neutralize it? I found ultrez 30 is much more difficult to hydrate than Carbomer 940.
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You are welcome. I bought ultrez 30 a couple of weeks ago but didn’t have time to test it. You gave me a reason to do it. I don’t know maybe I did something wrong. The supplier insists that it’s electrolytes resistant… have you tried sepimax zen? That thing can gel pretty much anything.
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So, I didn’t like the result at all. I dissolved 0.1% of x200 aloe vera powder in deionised water and added 0.5% of ultrez 30. 0.5% in water gives a very thick gel. I elevated the pH to 7 with a couple of drops of thiethanolamine and the end result was a runny serum like cloudy substance. Also ultrez 30 is very difficult to hydrate. Waste of money
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@Perry, I agree with your analogy about applying moisturizer and then removing it (this is pretty much how it works) however, in case of balms no water is added, so emulsifiers together with oils dissolve makeup and sebum completely and let it be rinsed off. If properly formulated, such a product cleanses pretty well. I think it’s crucial to rinse it not wipe off. I agree it won’t moisturize in a conventional way, because nothing is left on skin, but since it strips less oils from skin than surfactants (detergents) there’s a perception that the product is ‘moisturizing’. These products are coming to the western markets from asia and I think they will become very popular soon. Dior has launched one recently.
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Carbomer 940 is not tolerant to electrolites at all (I personally think it’s not tolerant to anything but water, very dissapointing material). Carbopol Ultrez 30 is claimed to be electrolites resistant by manufacturers. I have not tested it myself yet, but since you asked, I am curious. I will run an experiement later today and let you know if it works.
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I think that cleansing balms are good example of cleansers that can be claimed as products that “leave skin moisturised” because they don’t include detergents. I am referring to an anhydrous solid products that contains fatty acids, traditional emulsifiers (the onces used in formulating lotions) and oils, like this one:
Cetearyl
alcohol and PEG-20 Stearate10.00% PEG-40 HCO 10.00% Almond oil 49.50% Stearic acid 19.00% Cetyl Alcohol 5.00% Tocopherol 0.20% Kaoilin Clay 5.00% Mix of essential oils 0.50% Preservative 0.50% They are used in Korean skin care a lot.
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By the way I noticed that The Ordinary recently replaced Sepimax Zen to Sodium Hyaluronate Crosspolymer in several formulations. One of examples is low pH 30% AHA peel. It is very diffucult to gel something with a low pH and so, they were using Sepimax Zen, which is rather sticky (and they were getting complaints). When I looked at their LOI last time, I noticed they replaced it to Sodium Hyaluronate Crosspolymer. I have not worked with this form of HA, but I believe that it must be acting as a gel maker, because they don’t have any other ingredients that can form a gel in the formula. Which is bringing me back to the point that HA, is pretty nice gel maker.
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Disclaimer, when I said it’s “natural” I was referring a common perception of the consumer, rather than any legal or scientific definition.HA is mainly produced via bacterial fermentation (or could be animal origin). It is occured in human bodies, and as such, often marketed as “natural” whatever meaning it has for the end user. Xantham gum and hyaluronic acid are made by bacteria, sepiplus 400 (which I absolutely love) is synthesised in the lab. That is why I said, “if you don’t care about it being labeled as natural”. You can claim hyaluronic is “natural”, but I can’t imagine there is a way to justify that label for a polymer like sepiplus 400. The main reason why I like HA in serums, is it’s resistnace to a high concentration of active ingredients. It will gel anything at 0.3-0.5.
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The best option is high molecular weight hyaluronic acid. It’s natural, acts like a humectant and performs well in presence of high concentration of active ingredients. Downside-price. If you don’t care about ‘natural’ label try seppuplus 400, great sensory, electrolite resistant. You won’t need more than 0.5% for a serum.
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If the cleanser contains surfactants, it must be rinsed off
Not exactly. Micellar water contains surfactants and is used as leave on product. I personally don’t like the idea of leaving surfactants on my skin though.
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I researched high end face mists. Most contain PEG-40 HCO or Polysorbate 20 and preserved with phenoxyethanol. What I noticed is that ethoxylated ingredient always goes after phenoxyethanol.
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Well moisturising doesn’t mean lipophilic though. You can add good old glycerin. Unlike some other NMF there’s some benefit even in a wash off product. Also talking about lipophilic ingredients, nothing dissolves make up better than anhydrous oil cleansing balms. They leave skin very moisturised. So cleanser isn’t always a mixture of surfactants like SLES, coco glucoside etc. I agree in general regarding ‘moisturizing body washes’ and surfactant products with exotic oils added for claims.
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Thank you @marytsiang, I will reseach it.
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I saw many commercial products with polysorbate 20 preserved with phenoxyethanol. I guess it might be dependent on quantities.
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@Belassi, it’s a very interesting topic. Any short summary by markets?
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https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/29215#Comment_29215
I was referring to this conversation.