Newtoformulating
Forum Replies Created
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PhilGeis said:@Newtoformulating
Euxyl K940 is phenoxyethanol - with benzyl alcohol and EHG.You are so right! I’ve played around with so many preservatives to find the one that works best for my formula and my wires are all mixed up! Thanks for correcting that! Still using Phenoxyethanol just not the Optiphen preservatives…..
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ketchito said:@Newtoformulating If you heat your product and it turns clear again, it might be due to the kraft point of your system. Perhaps you could remove Ceteareth-25 (which is waxy) and increase your PEG-40 HCO if needed.
The sample is at the lab so I would have no way of knowing that but could you explain what you mean kraft point? Since my sample did turn cloudy dies that necessarily mean there is an issue with my formulation or could it be something that is expected to happen if it is heated excessively? Also if I remove the ceteareth-25 what would you suggest replacing it with? Thanks!
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MariaSibon said:Newtoformulating said:@Fekher Thanks for the words of encouragement! The final texture is a like that of a creamy peanut butter. Not waxy or oily. The final hold is a soft firm hold. It’s not a crunchy hold like I experienced using PVP
@evchem2 yes I do understand what you are saying and will evaluate my formula again because if an ingredient is not needed then I won’t include it. Thanks for your response and helping me with critical thinking and reevaluating my formula!
@MariaSibon definitely reevaluate your preservation system! When I used Optiphen Plus (Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, and Sorbic Acid)
my system was WEAK! I’m looking now to build a stronger preservation system and also using preservative boosters to make my system even stronger. I too had an issue at 1 month post accelerated conditions where my sample turned white from clear with no explanation. I’m still puzzled as to what happened but I’m almost certain the preservative I was using (Optiphen plus) was the issue. My pH wasn’t affected just the clarity. See photo.
Thank you for your comment.
As I explain below, I was not worried for the preservation system as my challenge test and 18 months micro was clean. I may be wrong of course, still researching that.
In my case I think is the degradation of the colourant upon other ingredient with the heat effect. But I still research, that is why I asked and I am open to opinions.It may be your preservative, but not from the point of view of preservation efficacy, but rather stability/chemical interaction with the other ingredients.
I dont think it is a good idea to have sorbic acid in your preservative mixture and have a neutral or higher ph, as it looses its effect. Also since your are using acrylates copolymer/AMP system, you will never manage to have an acidic pH, as the acrylates copolymer will loose its function.
My guess is that the cloudiness in your product is a reaction of sorbic acid with AMP, that created the respective salt. Do a test and lower the pH <6. The viscosity will change, but does it become less cloudy?Did you have this reaction also with other phenoxyethanol mixtures without sorbic acid?
I’m not sure as I’ve discontinued all Phenoxyethanol use. I did conclude that it may have been the sorbic acid reacting to another ingredient but didn’t dig deep enough to see which one. Your theory that the sorbic acid reacted with the AMP makes sense to me. I’ve since switched to Euxyl k940 as a preservative and will play around with my formulation a little more today. Yes I did realize I used the wrong preservative as opposed to my higher pH level. Euxyl k940 is more pH friendly to my formulation. I am now having an issue with dissolving ceteareth-25 in water. I’ve dissolved it separately in the oil phase and heated the water and oil phases to the same temp and mixed them together only for the ceteareth-25 to clump up and I’ve also put water and ceteareth-25 in the same vessel, heated and dissolved them together but the ceteareth-25 never completely dissolved. It may be because I’m using it at 23% of my formula but any lower percent the end formulation will not become solid. So any suggestions that way will be much appreciated. Also, do you think there is an issue with my pH being close to 7 with a hair gel product? I know that’s not a typical pH for this type of hair product but there’s really no way around it with the acrylates copolymer and AMP system that Im using. Thank you and please keep me posted on your research with your formula and your findings.
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@ yes it will be a challenge but worth looking into. Thanks
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@PhilGeis So I would need to stick with the jar or do you have another suggestion for packaging? Since I’m small scale the jar is just easier. Open to suggestions though. Thanks
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@Abdullah it’s worth me looking into. Thanks!
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@Abdullah you have made some really great suggestions. What do you think about my product being an edge control/sculpting gel in a bottle?
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@Abdullah I don’t think that will work for my product because it is so thick. It is not running at all. Most of the product would stay in the bottom of the bottle and the consumer would end up opening it to try to get the product out of the bottom. I would really need a tube similar to but shorter, like a toothpaste tube, but I lack the capability to package in a tube.
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@MarkBroussard Thank you! This is very helpful information!
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@PhilGeis It’s a jar. I know, I know that’s the worst thing to put my product in but at the moment in this stage of development that’s all I can do. I would love for my formula to be in a tube to reduce contamination but it’s just not feasible at the moment. That’s why I’m looking for a robust preservation system.
@MarkBroussard ok thanks. I will order 1,3 propanediol. Would it make sense to add Peg 40 hydrogenated castor oil to help with solubility along with 1,3 propanediol or just use the 1,3 propanediol?
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@PhilGeis It will be between 6-7. I’ve made some changes to the formula since the last official pH check but that’s the pH range I’m aiming for… so Euxyl k940 + disodium EDTA should work and get rid of the pentylene?
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@PhilGeis It’s a water-based edge control/sculpting gel. The viscosity is high( consistency of creamy peanut butter.
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@MarkBroussard
@Abdullah
Thank you both for responding!@PhilGeis so I may need to stick to Euxyl k940 that has the phenoxy, EHG, Benzyl Alcohol, and Tocopherol. Then add pentylene glycol and EDTA.
If could suggest a better combination I’m definitely open to suggestions if you think that system would be weak. Thanks!
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@Abdullah I thought about using Mikrokill COS (Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, chlorphenesin)which will add chlorphenesin to the mix. Your thoughts on that?
@PhilGeis so could I just drop pentylene glycol and Caprylyl Glycol take its place if I decide to go with what I mentioned earlier?
I also thought about using Euxyl k940 ( Benzyl Alcohol, Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin, and Tocopherol) then add pentylene glycol and EDTA as boosters. Your thoughts?According to Ashland’s website: Ashland Ethylhexylglycerin is stabilize with synthetic alpha-tocopherol. (Not sure if that means anything)
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@Anca_Formulator water, Ceteareth 25, Acudyne 1000, AMP, pentylene glycol, EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol
pH between 6-7
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@Fekher Thanks for the words of encouragement! The final texture is a like that of a creamy peanut butter. Not waxy or oily. The final hold is a soft firm hold. It’s not a crunchy hold like I experienced using PVP
@evchem2 yes I do understand what you are saying and will evaluate my formula again because if an ingredient is not needed then I won’t include it. Thanks for your response and helping me with critical thinking and reevaluating my formula!
@MariaSibon definitely reevaluate your preservation system! When I used Optiphen Plus (Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, and Sorbic Acid)
my system was WEAK! I’m looking now to build a stronger preservation system and also using preservative boosters to make my system even stronger. I too had an issue at 1 month post accelerated conditions where my sample turned white from clear with no explanation. I’m still puzzled as to what happened but I’m almost certain the preservative I was using (Optiphen plus) was the issue. My pH wasn’t affected just the clarity. See photo. -
@evchem2 I really don’t understand what you mean. Actually my current formula is a ringing gel that I am very pleased with. My ONLY issue is (what I came here for) was to get ideas on how to solidify my preservation system. My formula is a pretty simple, standard formula so I am truly lost at what you are implying. I’ve never had anyone on this forum to ask questions like this about my formula and it has been posted multiple times. I have a water phase and an oil phase. I’m really trying not to get confused as I already stated I am new to formulating but I am getting REALLY confused by your comments.
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@Abdullah IPBC in a solvent. The other allergens she reacted to was Methylisothiazolinone (MIT) and Methylchloroisothiazolinone (CMIT
@PhilGeis
@MarkBroussard
Thanks for responding! This information is definitely helpful -
@Abdullah my daughter had a patch test done on her skin to figure out the trigger for her severe eczema and that’s 1 of 2 things she reacted to.
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@PhilGeis Is there an issue using synthetic raw materials with biodegradable raw materials? I would use GLDA because it doesn’t originate from formaldehyde and formaldehyde may pose an issue for my customers if I use EDTA. Am I correct in my thinking that EDTA originates from formaldehyde?
@Abdullah I have a family history of IPBC allergy so that wouldn’t work and although I know that Parabens are the most effective preservatives it wouldn’t go well with my customers. So using Euxyl k940, chlorphenesin, Pentylene Glycol, Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate (GLDA) to preserve my formula won’t work? I appreciate all of you all feedback it has been very helpful!
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@evchem2 Thank you for responding. My use of Peg 40 hydrogenated castor oil is to assist in the solubility of the oil and water phases. Peg 7 glyceryl cocoate is used for solubility and moisture. That’s just my use and experience. Not sure if that’s everyone else’s take on PEG ingredients.
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@MarkBroussard Thank you for your guidance. This is VERY helpful!
@Abdullah Thank you also for responding! With the Acudyne 1000 and AMP that I am using, for clarity the lowest pH without my formula being too cloudy was 6.7
Anything below pH 6.7 once the Acudyne was neutralized was on the verge of my hair gel being white. I wanted my product to be as clear as possible but if I neutralize it to the full % to achieve the clear ringing gel I’m looking for then the pH was way to high (pH between 8-9) Is it possible for me to add citric acid or something else to lower the pH in conjunction with my other ingredients in order to achieve the clear look I’m going for and a much lower pH or would I just have to deal with the pH being on the high side (pH of 6-7) and my gel being slightly cloudy? Thanks again! -
@MarkBroussard thanks for responding! What specific chelating agent and Glycol would you recommend if my pH will be between 6-7? Also is sodium benzoate compatible with a 6-7 pH as well? Thanks again!
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@PhilGeis Thanks for the information!