[mikethair]

Hi @Cafe33 yes I agree with you. Most do not care. But when building and maintaining a brand I looked at things differently.

First, I needed to differentiate my brand and products. I shared my brand philosophy and identity. This is what customers are buying into. And coupled with this I redefined skincare and set new standards. This elevates customers to a higher level of existence. As well as price. Our products were not cheap!! Our focus was to replace more functional benefits with experiential ones, namely essential oil fragrances.

Secondly, some customers are allergic to synthetic fragrances. And my wife is one of these. And I’m the same. At the slightest whiff of a synthetic fragrance, she and I have adverse reactions. And it is worse when my wife is menstruating. These people usually remain quiet, but as we discovered, this reaction to synthetic fragrances is more common than most people realise. And this drew people to our brand because we built trust.

Thirdly, we were very transparent in the sourcing of our ingredients, especially the essential oil fragrances. And this was part of our trust-building.

So yes, I agree, most customers don’t care. But with my brand, the mission was beyond filling a market gap, and beyond making a profit only. The focus was on the WHY. And this became the core of my brand and our marketing. Why the world was a better place with my products. Customers with bad reactions to synthetics could safely use my products.

And it worked. The products I formulated were enormously successful globally. And in a short time, I was manufacturing Private Label for brands globally. This became 90% of our turnover. And I spent years perfecting our essential oil fragrances, it’s something I have been doing for 30+ years. Many of our customers were drawn to our unique essential oil formulations.

[mikethair]

We have been down this path. The pump you have pictured is totally useless, as we found out. We purchased a metal pump that fitted into the tank lid. You need to check that the pump extends to the base of the tank. With viscous liquids there are a lot of forces in play, so this is why you need a solid metal pump that fits into the lid.

[mikethair]

Why become certified? Is it necessary?

In my factories, I designed the GMP SoPs that were approved by the regulatory authorities in various countries, and then I designed and set up two of our factories and in-house laboratories required by GMP.

Next, I hired a graduate and made her the QA Manager and I gave her the necessary training, then basically threw her into the deep end. She learnt, very quickly, on the job. And within the first month, she fronted a GMP inspection from the regulatory authority. There were a few issues raised, and with my assistance, she sorted these out.

My point here is that you will never get any better course than “on-the-job training.”

[mikethair]

Hi @sahar, I would be first looking at your shampoo base and identifying what is causing the strong smell. And knowing what this is you have two options.

First, eliminate this ingredient or find an alternative that does not have such a strong smell.

Or, second, once you have identified the strong smell, then work on a fragrance that can work or has synergy with this smell. And creating a fragrance can be a lot of painstaking and methodical work. It’s something I have been doing for 30+ years.

[mikethair]

Not in our experience if the pump is made using high-quality metal.

[mikethair]

Hi @Perry44 , what we do is add a strong base (KOH) to olive oil to produce potassium olivate. And yes technically, this is not “natural.” But in my opinion is more natural than many of the other synthetic surfactants used in cosmetics. And, potassium olivate does not have any negative effects on health, which may not be the case with other synthetic surfactants.

And you ask “How is saponification any more natural than sulfation?” Not any more natural, but saponification is a lot more easily managed by our artisans.

[mikethair]

Hi @Meemcha a bold statement of yours as you have never tried this product. We sold this face wash globally, and mostly (90% of production) as a Private Label product for global brands. It sold very well, and even now one year after I stopped producing this product I still have requests from customers and brands.

[mikethair]

Thanks, @ketchito

I will go through and evaluate these. And yes, I may re-evaluate my stance on this issue as a result.

[mikethair]

Hi @PhilGeis ,

Re the position of the ASEAN standards and their position on phthalates, they identify the two most commonly used are DEP and DMP. They also identify three phthalates, DBP, BBP, and DEHP which are prohibited for use in cosmetic products in Europe and ASEAN.

They also mention that DEP and DMP, are usually used at low levels and that these have been
assessed to be safe for use in cosmetic products, including products intended for infants and children by the European Union’s scientific advisory panel, the Scientific Committee on Consumer Products (SCCP), the Cosmetic Ingredient Review Expert Panel, and the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

[mikethair]

Hi @PhilGeis

Of course, my experience as the co-founder and Master Formulator of a
skincare manufacturing factory in Viet Nam and Malaysia since 2006
DOES NOT qualify me as a toxicologist. And I have never made this claim.

From my experience, any toxicology issues are determined for each product as the product details (including the ingredient list) are presented to the regulatory authorities for Notification approval before we can release them on the market.

[mikethair]

All I can reply is that my opinions are based on my experience as the co-founder and Master Formulator of
a skincare manufacturing factory in Viet Nam and Malaysia since 2006. We exported globally into some of the most rigours skincare compliance regimes in the world. Plus, I am a scientist who has consulted globally for 30+ years.

My opinion, you can take or leave.

[mikethair]

Of course, the toxicologists at IFRA would agree. Who is paying their salary?

[mikethair]

There is a lot in the literature, and my research interest and focus as a scientist as a skincare manufacturer is the role of fragrance as an Endocrine Disruptor. A limited selection below.

doi: 10.1016/j.ecoenv.2022.113677. Epub 2022 May 26.

Environ Health Perspect. 2012 Jul;120(7):935-43. doi: 10.1289/ehp.1104052. Epub 2012 Mar 8.

Environ Health Perspect. 2016 Aug;124(8):1155-65. doi: 10.1289/ehp.1510529. Epub 2016 Mar 8.

Curr Probl Pediatr Adolesc Health Care. 2017 May;47(5):107-118. doi: 10.1016/j.cppeds.2017.04.002. Epub 2017 May 17.

J Expo Sci Environ Epidemiol. 2022 Nov;32(6):864-876. doi: 10.1038/s41370-022-00485-y. Epub 2022 Nov 2.

Environ Res. 2018 Aug;165:448-458. doi: 10.1016/j.envres.2018.03.030. Epub 2018 Apr 25.

Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2018 Oct 15;474:238-251. doi: 10.1016/j.mce.2018.03.014. Epub 2018 Mar 27.

Int J Mol Sci. 2023 Mar 10;24(6):5342. doi: 10.3390/ijms24065342.

Regul Toxicol Pharmacol. 2019 Aug;106:349-350. doi: 10.1016/j.yrtph.2019.05.007. Epub 2019 May 11.

Dermatol Clin. 2020 Jul;38(3):371-377. doi: 10.1016/j.det.2020.02.009. Epub 2020 May 4.

[mikethair]

Hi @PhilGeis,

We will probably need to agree to disagree on this one. I have done extensive research of the published scientific literature (peer-reviewed), and come to y conclusions.

[mikethair]

Preservative-free claims with eye drops should be a red flag for consumers.

[mikethair]

Hi @jupiter yes, we manufactured soap bars for 20+ years in Viet Nam and Malaysia and exported globally. In our factories, I set up a physical chemistry lab to back up my formulation experimentation (plus to satisfy our GMP compliance requirements).

One thing we did was to super-fat recipes. Here we would reduce the amount of NaOH required in a calculated recipe, and this would leave some of the oil un-saponified. This oil would provide the soap bars with a moisturising effect. There were other variables here as well, including the type of oil unsaponified.

And it worked. I have very very dry skin, and these bars were great on my skin. And the customers loved these bars as well.

[mikethair]

@PhilGeis the literature references you have provided describe the approach taken by our QC Manager. She was young and enthusiastic and I had provided within our factory two well-equipped labs.

[mikethair]

@ketchito and another approach is to share brand philosophy and identity. And this is what consumers are buying into. The result is that your brand is not so much product-driven as purpose-driven, and therefore less bossed around by the consumer or market, and more driven by the brand’s convictions. Within this context with my brand we would often focus on “old fashion values from simpler times” and “exotic fragrances will take you away to a time and place where life moves more leisurely.”

[mikethair]

Hi PhilGeis,

Yes, over the 20 years that we manufactured soap bars, for every batch we produced our QC Manager retained bars for 2-3 years, and these were tested regularly. All results were recorded. Plus, we did various tests in-use with the help of some of our customers.

We never detected any issues, apart from fragrance loss. So, I would say that our QC Manager and myself have a fairly good idea.

And your most insightful comment - “Mike - I do not know if consumer safety is compromised by your products.”

[mikethair]

PhilGeis, Yes, I can see where you are coming from, and it’s fair enough. And over the 20 years we manufactured soap bars we did run some in-use testing, and did not detect any issues.

Can you point us in the direction of what other soap makers are doing?

[mikethair]

(1) Yes indeed, most consumers do not care about preservatives. This is the mass market and not our target market.

(2) And we weren’t into fear-mongering. We just produced products that did not use preservatives. We left the fear-mongering to other brands.

And we were all about “trading down,” down to the local, the simple, the unrefined but raw and true.

[mikethair]

Yes indeed, there is certainly a large segment of consumers who prefer synthetic detergents and moisturizers over traditional soap and face/body oils. And these consumers were not our focus and never will be.

And conditioner is well outside the scope we would cater for with my formulations. However, we did produce a successful shampoo using saponified coconut oil. It worked for some hair types, but not others.

I never aimed to formulate products for the mass market. It is a very crowded space, and dominated by very cheap products. Our focus was on artisanal products.

[mikethair]

And this is about to change. The USA will adopt compliance standards similar to the EU. But it is in process now, and may be difficult to implement.

[mikethair]

PhilGeis - If you are implying that our products compromised micro and chemical safety, then you are mistaken.

Again, we complied with the toughest cosmetics compliance standards globally. From our experience, Japan tops the list, followed by the EU, and we exported to both countries.

And the USA standards were the lowest, but currently, these are in the process of being revised.

[mikethair]

Your words, not mine.

And my words “As a scientist, I focussed on developing product formulations that did not use preservatives.”