mikethair
Forum Replies Created
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I learnt the hard way, and now steer clear of Chinese equipment.
We have had success with Waring Big Sik Heavy-Duty Immersion Blenders - http://www.waringcommercialproducts.com/catalog.php?pcID=90
Others I know in the industry use these. They are robust and reliable.
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We produce “natural” products under fairly strict and frequently audited GMP compliance conditions. Most of our products have an expiry date of two years. We run the standard Rapid Stability Testing methods, plus I like to ro Real Time as well. 90% of our production business is OEM/Private Label.
To your question, “I am being asked to formulate natural products with expiration of 2-3 years? How is that possible to predict this before stability is done?” Unless you are doing something really left-field, I would be guided by what is already in the marketplace.
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Hi Andy77,
Yes, we are manufacturing in Malaysia and may be able to assist. Most of our business is producing for other brands locally and internationally.
Kind regards,
Dr. Mike Thair
Chief Formulator
Indochine Natural Sdn Bhd -
“the first ever truly natural 100% preservative free face wash”…. not quite true.
We have been producing one for years. You can check the ingredient list here: http://indochinenatural.com/shop/patchouli-lavender-face-wash-250-ml/
The sad thing with the brand mentioned here is the ‘hypoallergenic,’ ‘MIRR selective microbe claims’ and ‘preservatives are bad’ hype. Our approach is to produce what we do, and have the product speak for itself. Our face wash sells very well under our own brand and a few other brands. At the end of the day consumers (in my opinion) are not so concerned about technical features, but are more interested in what works for them.
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OK, I have been in your position exactly some years ago. Firstly, you need to work this out for yourself. My approach was as follows:
(1) Set up the production facility to meet GMP requirements.
(2) Set up your QC system and testing protocols etc.
(3) Start working with recipes in small batches to see what works, what doesn’t, and test the product results. I started with 6 Kg batches in stainless steel pots.
(4) Scale up to bigger batches in stainless steel pots to see if your selected recipes are reproducible. Check your testing protocols.
(5) If all OK, then scale up to your 250 L tank.Along the way you will learn a lot, including modifications to your production facility and equipment.
Another point….. check the marketplace. What is your unique selling point with your recipes? If nothing too unique, then maybe consider contract manufacturing.
Remember, it can be done…. but requires persistence. Also, if you can have a peek at another production facility, this can be helpful.
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We have had a similar experience, although not with the product type you mention. In our case it was not an issue of product incompatability, but an issue of defective packaging.
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Good suggestion @DAS will give SLES 25% a go.
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Yes @Chemist77 acid indeed. At 1% the pH was around 2. Will pose problems probably in our bottling machine.
@DAS the natureof our product requires something anionic (I think). Will search for other alternatives.
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Not needing preservatives does not apply to just anhydrous products.
Check out ISO 29261 (Second edition 2017-03) “Cosmetics — Microbiology — Guidelines for the risk assessment and identification of microbiologically low-risk products”
These include soaps (liquid and solid) considered low risk because of low water activity and high pH.
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Who cares. You could spend a lifetime chasing these types of brands. My approach…. focus on mmy own brand and get on with it.
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Yes @Perry, agreed, not soluble. So seems a myth perpetuated by ingredient suppliers and as @ozgirl mentions, by bloggers.
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With our new hair conditioner recipe, at room temperature (around 30 C here in the tropics) it appears stable after 8 weeks. However, put it into our 45 C rapid stability test oven and it seperatesinto two layers fairly quickly.
Would I be correct in assuming this is normal for some hair conditioner recipes?
Does present us with a dilema. Dop we only then do room temperature testing? And for how long?
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Thanks for your tip @Bill_Toge, but from my experience if Croda have an agent in Singapore who deal with middlemen in Malaysia, then the Croda agent in India will be unwilling to deal with me. Have had this situation with other global companies.
Anyway, have sent an email to Croda UK…… will see if I get a response. I do not expect this to be resolved, but at least Croda should be aware, and will be an indication as to if they even care.
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We are a small manufacturer, GMP certificated, and aware of the EU requirements. We export to a few countries.
My company, Indochine Natural, started in Viet Nam as a home based operation where I “fiddled” and developed basic recipes. We then graduated to a small production facility and implemented a full QC system. Next step was to set up a production facility in Malaysia.
In my opinion, I think that a home operator would find it very difficult to comply with all of the requirements and Safety Assessment of EU Cosmetic Product Notification.
Would love you to prove me wrong though……
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Well @Bill_Toge & @Chemist77 ….. I did give Croda a try. They have headquarters in Singapore and they very effcientlyhandballed me to an agent in Malaysia. Using the typical Malaysian supply mode menatlity of Traders, when I requested a powder/dry form of protein, they provided a quote and technical literature for a aqueous form. An email from me asking if they had the dry Croda protein, the answer came back in one word…”No.” I did not see any offer of sourcing the Croda product, etc etc…. just a simple “No.”
Conveyed this to the office in Singapore who then contacted the Malaysia rep. He then spun a yarn to Singapore of having conatced me via phone and that all was cool, no problems. Of course they didn’t.
Its a loooong way from UK, and I wonder if Croda are aware of local agents tarnishing what I would imagine is a good Croda brand name?
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Thanks @Bill_Toge & @Chemist77 ….. will give Croda a try.
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Hi ozgirl……we source from Australia (I’m an aussie)….. can you provide any suppliers in Oz for hydrolyzed wheat proteins? Crikey, hydrolysed wheat proteins for ~$75/kg…..
Our current supplier is New Directions in Oz (Sydney).
Thanks.
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I take a different approach with INCI names. In Malaysia we need to Notify products online with the Cosmetics section of the Ministry of health. My starting point is always their online INCI database of accepatable ingredients and INCI names. If it is not on this database, the Notification cannot proceed. One could go through the process of having them add a new ingredient, but not a hassle I would want to take on.
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Sounds expensive to me @ $3,000. Surely you can set up an accelerated stability test yourself? You would require an oven to maintain 45 C and monitor the products for 3 months with a range of basic tests.
In our company we do the accelerated stability test plus another set of samples for real time testing. Generally, in my opinion, it is not an excat science, but does identify problems with the product and packaging.
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Best place to start would be looking at the need and demand for these services in your area. Once identifying the lab services required, this would be a guide for equipment procurement and the type & size of premises required.
You may also need to look at staffing, their availability, and cost.
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UPDATE: I pasteurized these bottles @ 60 C for 30 minutes. The TPC Bacteria = 100,000 CFU/mL was reduced down to 0 CFU/mL.
Seems to be a good approach. Will repeat the microbial tests just to be sure.
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Why not just use a blend of oils and leave the other gunk out?
Our most successful product is:
Simmondsia chinensis (Jojoba) seed oil, Sesamum indicum (Sesame) seed oil, Olea europaea (Olive) fruit oil, Cocos nucifera (Coconut) oil, Helianthus annuus (Sunflower) seed oil, Pelargonium graveolens (Geranium) oil, Salvia sclarea (Clary Sage) oil, Cananga odorata (Ylang Ylang) flower oil.
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Sorry again, I am making mistakes converting between units, plus updates to the ASEAN Guidelines which have also revised units
In response to @manuksh the ASEAN Guidelines state =< 500 cfu/g or cfu/ml in products for children under 3 years, eye area and mucous membranes, and =< 1000 cfu/g or cfu/ml.
Our results are ranging between TPC Bacteria = 100,000 CFU/mL down to 1,000 CFU/mL, which of course are problematic.
One solution “may” be pasteurising these hydrosols?
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Sorry, a typo in my original post…..it should be 500 CFU/cm2.
In response to @manuksh the ASEAN Guidelines state <500 CFU/g for products for children under 3 years, eye area and mucous membranes, and =< 1000 cfu/g for other products.
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You are correct @manuksh about the original question. My approach to this issue is one of compliance and customer safety. If I am facing a GMP inspector, and taking customer safety seriously, the safest route is to follow the manufacturers instructions for the test kit. It would be a weak argument on our side if we didn’t in the case of facing a customer compalint or GMP query.