[mikethair]

In my opinion, it would be a challenge if attempting this if your production area is not GMP certified.  Ours is, and we work with this size container on a daily basis.

[mikethair]

My approach would be first to ensure that I have detailed Batch Manufacturing Records (BMR), including in-process testing results. Second, be consistent with your homogenizer. Produce a minimum size batch using the same homogenizer as your larger batches.

I use BMR’s to identify where the issues are, and then try to correct these. It’s slow work.  And important that once the issue is sorted that you remain consistent for subsequent batches.

I had viscosity problems when scaling up a hair conditioner. The above approach sorted it out.

[mikethair]

We successfully do a lot of liquid soap in large vats. A few points based on the comments above:

1. Why would you add a preservative? Liquid soaps are self-preserving and are included in the ISO 29621 Cosmetics — Microbiology — Guidelines for the risk assessment and identification of microbiologically low-risk products. Under our local GMP regulations, we have Challenge Tested all new formulations and the results are excellent.
2. During the in-process QC, our QC Manager does a  simple “saponification test” to ensure that the saponification is complete. This is recorded on the BMR.
3. Our philosophy is “keep it simple.” We make large batches of liquid soap bases using various combinations of oils, or just simply a coconut oil base, and an extra-virgin olive oil base. Once a batch is completed, we store for two weeks in jerrycans, then our QC Manager does a range of QC tests, and if OK, release the batch to our production crew.
4. I can’t comment on fragrance oils because we never use them.
5. Yes, certain essential oils can cause cloudiness and increase viscosity. My advice, learn to identify these and avoid them. Also, in some cases, cloudiness may appear initially, then after a few days, clear.
6. In the production phase where EO’s are added, we leave the mixed batches sitting for 1-2 hours, and our QC Manager will evaluate before allowing the production crew to proceed with bottling.

Hope the above is helpful. And my main advice is to keep it simple, the more gunk added is likely to increase clarity problems.

Below is a pic of a nice clear liquid soap in our vat, ready to go into jerrycans.

[mikethair]

We are based in Malaysia and can confirm that the best source of info is the ASEAN Cosmetics Guidelines

https://www.npra.gov.my/images/Guidelines_Central/Guidelines_on_Cosmetic/Annex_I_Part_5_.pdf

In particular, and to answer your question, you should refer to the following Annexes of the ASEAN Cosmetics Guidelines:

Annex II: List of Substances which must not form part of the composition of cosmetic products

Annex III: List of Substances which cosmetic products must not contain except subject to restriction and conditions laid down

Annex IV: List of Colouring Agents allowed for use in cosmetic products

Annex V: List of Excluded from the scope of the Directive

Annex VI: List of Preservatives which cosmetic products may contain

Annex VII: List of UV filters which cosmetic products may contain

[mikethair]

Agree @Perry    We have entered the “Post Truth Era,” and largely fueled by social media. The borders are blurred between truth and lies, honesty and dishonesty, fiction and nonfiction. And especially in the cosmetics industry. As a scientist, it is frustrating, but I guess one has to face the reality and get used to being told you are wrong by an anonymous social media “guru’…. people don’t identify themselves these days.

[mikethair]

And the other side of the story. We produce shampoo by saponifying coconut oil, face wash using olive oil, and body wash using a blend of soya, coconut and palm oils. Yes, the pH is high. No, we see no need to reduce the pH.

These products sell well, plus we produce OEM/Private Label for a number of brands.

But the secret to these products is proper saponification. Many have problems getting it right, and the end product suffers as a result.

[mikethair]

I’m into transparency, and use my real name, so I’m easy to spot.

[mikethair]

Probably, yes.

[mikethair]

Yes, I may be able to help. I’m the chief formulator at Indochine Natural and do a range of OEM/Private Label organic skincare products for other companies.

[mikethair]

From our experience one of the best repellents is Lemon-scented Eucalyptus (Corymbia citriodora) .  We produced a simple effective relellant using Corymbia citriodora.

Well researched, for example, J Am Mosq Control Assoc. 2006 Sep;22(3):507-14.

PMD, a registered botanical mosquito repellent with deet-like efficacy.

Carroll SP1, Loye J.

[mikethair]

If they do not respond to email, forget them. We always email a Purchase Order to our suppliers. It works.

[mikethair]

“IME more people have issues with EO’s as they’re plant-based, than quality manufactured fragrances. “

It has not been our experience. We manufacture face oils for our own and other local plus international brands. The market niche we capture includes many customers with issues surrounding manufactured synthetic fragrances. The co-founders of our company fall into this category of being affected by manufactured synthetic fragrances.

I do not subscribe to the view that “plant-based” is 100% safe. It is clearly not the case. What we do is not accept any EO unless our QC Manager has approved the batch # CoA. The CoAs include an allergens analysis. In formulating we do a thorough analysis of the allergens and check that these fall within safe levels in the formulation.

[mikethair]

We do a lot of liquid soap using various combinations of saponified oils. Once saponified it will be solid, The next step is a dilution. The amount of water used depends on the oils. So for the first batches, it is a matter of trial and error to get the correct dilution. For example, with a coconut oil saponification using 18 Kg of coconut oil, in the dilution phase we use 15 Kg of water. In another recipe using about 12 Kg of olive oil, we dilute after cooking with 43 Kg of water.

[mikethair]

“anti-pollution formulas”…. conceptually, moving a bit away from the definition of a cosmetic in my humble opinion.

Article 2 of the EU Cosmetics Regulation (Regulation (EC) No.
1223/2009) incorporates the following definition of a cosmetic product:

A “cosmetic product” shall mean any substance or
mixture intended to be placed in contact with the various external
parts of the human body (epidermis, hair system, nails, lips and
external genital organs) or with the teeth and the mucous membranes of
the oral cavity with a view exclusively or mainly to cleaning them,
perfuming them, changing their appearance and/or correcting body odours
and/or protecting them or keeping them in good condition.

The wording “anti-pollution” is simply a marketing trend. Then you tack  “anti-pollution” onto a standard cosmetic formula, then make anti-pollution claims.  Brands who do this, in my opinion, are showing a sign of desperation.

[mikethair]

We are located in Malaysia and our GMP production facility is ASEAN Cosmetics Guidelines compliant. We export to the USA and Europe. From our experience, the ASEAN Guidelines are certainly closer to the EU requirements. Follow the EU regulations, you’ll be compliant in most places around the world.

[mikethair]

I would suggest you have someone help you with a Business Vision & Brand Guidelines. Based on your target audience and what you come up with in this branding guideline, the questions you ask will be answered. Important to be consistent in your brand messaging.

[mikethair]

We saponify oils to produce liquid washes with pH around 9.5. We have been producing for about 20 years for our own label and OEM/Private Label. This pH has never been a problem.

Going back to my research scientist days a long time ago, I was doing a lot of mathematical modeling for the skin. The mantle recovers quickly. Plus, the chemistry of cleaning favours a higher pH. It’s a wash-off product, so the body wash is not in contact with the skin long.

Not a popular view. But that’s what we do.

[mikethair]

“Learning to make cosmetics and learning to SELL cosmetics require completely different skill sets. ” Agree 100%. We can make products, which consumes most of our time and resources, but a totally different mindset is required to sell. And, it’s not just the making, what comes with this is all of the compliance around GMP, product registration, etc etc. Go get yourself a god contract manufacturer.

[mikethair]

We make a lot of soap. And from what you have described, I would be looking first at the “fragrance: ‘red berries’ 3% .” Do you have a CoA for the fragrance? Is it the same as the previous CoA? 

[mikethair]

We operate under the ASEAN Cosmetics Guidelines, and they have put together a series of modules. Our staff have a monthly working lunch woking through these. Als, it is a component of our GMP inspections, and the GMP inspectors want to see documented proof of staff progress in GMP training. 

[mikethair]

Good point.

As an Australian scientist I could never earn a good living, so moved into other areas. This is one of the issues. Another issue is the source of funding. Often the source will influence findings. And no, it may not be good science. This then raises the question of peer reviews of papers before they are published. What influences are are occuring here?

[mikethair]

Not sure why you are using Sodium Cocoate. We use this in solid soap formulations.

For liquid shampoo we use Potassium Cocoate (saponified coconut oil).

We have zero problems with cloudiness with Potassium Cocoate . No, we do not use a preservative because the pH is around 9.0.  Challenge Testing (PET) have demonstrated that preservatives are not required.

Plus, this is backed up under ISO 29621:2017 covering finished cosmetic products. Identified products in the guideline do not require preseravtives and the application of microbiological International standards for Cosmetics commonly called “challenge test” or ISO 11930.

[mikethair]

We refuse to deal via alibaba. Instead, we buy direct from the manufacturer. It is not difficult to find these companies. Best approach is to ask others in your country for recommendations.

[mikethair]

@Docaashu, are you able to cite scientific literature indicating that “As a doctor, I know the fact alkaline pH is not good for skin. Alkaline property of soaps increase many health risks including fungal infections, eczema and psoriasis”?

[mikethair]

Doreen said:

the decision followed to use double sterilized plates (those that are also sterilized in its secundary package) instead. More pricey, but problem solved!
(Ok, these are a different brand and are plates instead of dipslides, but the medium and use are the same)

What brand and product are you referring to?

Thanks