[mikethair]

ngarayeva001 said:

There always will be people who prefer soap. I think it is an outdated technology though.

We make and sell a lot of traditional cold-process soap. Outdated maybe, but it sells. Is there any other reason to make new or old technology soap?

Agreed, its a niche market.

Effects of long term use? For me 30+ years. Plus thousands of customers. No one is compaining of the symptoms described by @Belassi

[mikethair]

We purchase from these guys:

https://soapequipment.com/Tanks/

Very happy with the equipment, their service, and help.

[mikethair]

formul8101 said:

Is it necessary to have Preservative Challenge Tests done on products with physiochemical factors that would make them low risk according to ISO 29621 i.e. a pH > 10 or Aw < 0.75 ? 

In my opinion just good practice to do Challenge test for the formulation, then all bases covered.

[mikethair]

Crikey, our manufacturing is based in a developing country and the cosmetics compliance would never allow us to produce this legitimately. I thought Amazon was vetting cosmetics these days? How do they get away with it?

[mikethair]

Perry said:

I’d say the problem is using old technology like soap when you could be using better technology like less harsh surfactants.. 

With great respect Perry, our business is built on cold process bar soap and liquid soap. Our certified GMP & Halal production facility is designed to produce old fashioned soap. We have our own brand, and 90+ % of our business is manufacturing for other brands locally and internationally.  There is consumer demand for these products. If there wasn’t, we would not have invested the money we have to-date.

The pH of our products is around 9.5 - 10. No complaints from customers. That pH should be below 8 is rubbish. Check out this table here of soap pH, includes both syndets and soap.

[mikethair]

“They are asking of 15% ownership“….for that I would be setting some clearly defined and quantified sales outcomes as a result of their marketing activities. In my experience to date, a lot of there marketing characters steer well clear of measureable marketing outcomes.

We have one of our private label customers asking to buy a stake in our production facilility business. The difference here is that they are “buying” shares. 

[mikethair]

When you say “a stake in my business” do you mean they will buy shares? If so, what percentage of the total shares are they asking for?

[mikethair]

Interesting figures @Belassi  OK, as a manufacturer who sells wholesale, what numbers would you suggest?

[mikethair]

We do a lot of liqiud soap the classic way (oil + KOH). In response to some of the comments:

“the foam is not that rich” - different oils have different characteristics and level of foam. For example olive oil = low foam, coconut oil = high foam. We blend a few oils to get the characteristics we want.

“the pH is only reduced up to 9.” - ours are usually around 9.5 and we do not adjust with citric acid etc. Bring the pH down too far and you may then need to consider using a preservative. Will also tend to cause some seperation.

“Classsic soaps are drying.” - a sign of poor saponification methods/calculation. Our customers say different. With many recipes we super-fat.

” it is not a stable product.” - not in our experience. As part of our compliance requirement we retain product samples. After 4-5 years, products are still OK.

“the traditional way- is that my clients want a natural (as far as it gets) liquid soap.” - our experience exactly. We also produce for other brands as well./

“You can give your clients an inferior product based on tradition” - then I wonder why this inferior product is in such high demand. I will add however, this tradition is not easy.

[mikethair]

We make soap, so I guess my opinions will be dismissed. Anyway, my tuppence worth.

(1) I’m old scientist guy (pushing my 70’s) and in my time there was credible published research supporting the typers of claims made by Vermont Soap. This research is old, and has not been digitalised, so you will not find it on scientific literature databases. (wow, that now totally discredits me)

(2) You may be surprised at the pH of many commercial soaps as shown in this extract below. We make cold process soap and they are usually around pH 9.5.

(3) Old science: (i) a higher pH with soap facilitates the cleaning process (you know, one end attracts water, the other end dirt), (ii) the mantle regains its normal pH fairly quickly, and (iii) no long-term affects of high pH soap with normal skin. I have seen recent published research covering (ii) and (iii).

(4) The higher pH does not require preservatives to be used, see ISO 29621 Low microbial risk cosmetics

(5) So where does that leave me? We produce cold process soap for our own brand and other brands, and it sells well. These products have large long-established customer bases. The demand is there, so we keep producing.

[mikethair]

We have low MOQs, however our location on Penang Island, Malaysia, may be a challenge depending on where you are located.

Our production facility is certified GMP, and we specialisein natural formulations.

[mikethair]

If you are using a contract manufacturer, shouldn’t they be doing the lab tests before releasing the product?

[mikethair]

What are the particular challenges you face that necessitates software tools?

[mikethair]

At Indochine Natural we use essential oils exclusively for our own product line. Plus, we use EO’s in all of our OEM/Private Label formulations which is about 95% of our production, both local and international. This part of our business has overtaken production for our own brand. The products produced for both local and internatioal brands are all top-end price range and include face wash, body wash, shampoo, hair conditioner, soap, face/body oils etc.

The list includes: Aniseed, Basil Sweet CT Chavicol, Bergamot, Cedarwood Virginian, Cinnamon Bark, Clary Sage, Clove Bud, Copaiba Balsam, Eucalyptus Blue Gum, Geranium Bourbon, Grapefruit, Lavender Ang x Lat, Lemon, Lemongrass, May Chang oil (Litsea cubeba), Orange Sweet, Patchouli, Peppermint, Rosemary CT Cineole, Vetiver, Ylang Ylang. There ae others at well.

In 40 years of formulating, I have ever only used essential oils.

[mikethair]

Quite a good summary here on essential oil reserch

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fc4d/01f20b689f5f3c19d747c2bda4f256865b81.pdf

[mikethair]

Thanks @EVchem …… in the process of contacting  schulke technical.

[mikethair]

Hi @sven  we are using https://www.schuelke.com/intl-en/products/mikrocount-duo.php

Highly recommended.

[mikethair]

With respect @Belassi are you telling me that the manufacturer of the microbiol test has got the test units wrong? Attached here is a photo of the units used by the test manufacturer, and they use cm2.

[mikethair]

Hi @DAS yes I agree we should maintain our standards. We had an interesting exhange with the RO water supplier as follows:

Our email to them was as follows:

“Our Quality Manager has alerted me to the microbiol test for the RO water delivery we received on Tuesday 15 September. From the attached photo you will see that the result is between 1 CFU/cm2 and 5 CFU/cm2. Usually, we would expect 1 or less than 1 CFU/cm2 . We have our own RO system, and the result is always ND (no bacteria detected). Our previous suppliers result was always  1 or less than 1 CFU/cm2 .”

Their reply (from chemist):

“From the information provided, what I understand is:

1 CFU/cm2 = 1000 CFU/ml (per 1 ml sample)

5 CFU/cm2 = 10,000 CFU/ml (per 1 ml sample)

 So in this case, your QC is <1 MPN/100 ml (per 100 ml sample).

 

Your QC show <1 MPN/100 ml sample which is interpreted as no detection.

The only difference is the unit (MPN) because of different testing method, but still your result per 100 ml sample is no detection. If in 100 ml sample has no detection, same goes to 1 ml of sample, no detection. So there should be no problem with your QC result.”

I have since found out that their own QC takes samples from the plant tap, not from a filled 18L bottle that is supplied to us. In my opinion this testing eliminates the possibility that the 18L bottles may be contaminated.

If, with our own testing from other suppliers we have also had results of 1 or less than 1 CFU/cm2, then I would expect the same from this supplier. I have missed anything? I’m not a water quality expert.

Thanks.

[mikethair]

@Sibech without going too far into GMP requirements you have already identified a few critical issues.

Addition areas are, in my opinion, layout and design of production area to minimise the risk of cross contamination and errors during all aspects of manufacture, filling and packaging. 

The weighing of starting materials should be carried out in a separate purpose designed weighing area.

The list goes on….

[mikethair]

In reality, if you check Lush ingredients they are not so “natural” (whatever that means).

@Perry that would require a massive reconstruction for a visit by inspectors. I doubt it very much.

@Sibech not sure if I agree with you. Some of what I observe would require a microbial regime

So, from my side as the owner of a GMP cosmetics facility, still non the wiser. As @em88 says “WTF??? Are you kidding me, why are they still in the market with this? ”   My thoughts exactly. Even without any microbial risks, this place would never be accepted under any GMP regime.

Mark Constantine, the Lush founder, was originally making stuff for Anita Roddick (The Body Shop). After some time, the Body Shop then paid £11 million for the rights of Mark Constantine’s recipes. So this guy has been around for a while and knows the cosmetics business. 

[mikethair]

Our GMP certified production facility is located in a very humid environment. We have never had any issues with bacteria and fungi. The reasons are simple.  Smooth surfaces (walls and floors) with good quality painted surfaces. We use epoxy paint on the floor.  Regular cleaning, and a VERY strict hygiene and gowning up regime. We do not use disinfectants on the floors and walls.

We do not use tiled surfaces. In my humble opinion they invite bacteria and fungi because of the gaps, and are difficult to keep clean.

[mikethair]

@Normasegovia55    I can only relate our experience and that of customers. For some years now we have produced a face oil formulation under our own brand plus a few Private Label brands. These formulations include essential oils. We do not make too many any claims about wrinkles etc. We see some plumping and smoothing of the skin, and that’s about it. However, across all brands, the formulation has been very successful and sells well.

My advice, do a lot of research and select your oils carefully. And don’t over promise on the benefits.

[mikethair]

The ISO 29621 Second edition 2017-03 provides some definitive answers on this issue. Quoting from this document:

“Alkaline pH may also create a hostile environment and may in some products be used as part of their preservative system. Liquid soaps with alkaline pH (pH 9,0 to pH 10,0) present an environment unfavourable for the growth of some microorganisms (see Reference [11]). Hair curl relaxers, due to their extreme pH (around 12), prevent the growth of virtually all microorganisms that would be likely to contaminate cosmetic products (see Reference [12]).
The reason for this is that the extreme pH, either acidic or alkaline, makes it necessary for microorganisms to expend energy on maintenance of intracellular pH rather than growth. When pH is used in combination with chelating agents, glycols, antioxidants, water activity and high surfactant levels, an environment can be created which will not support microbial growth.”

Works for us. Of course every new product we produce is Challenge Tested, and each batch manufactured is tested in our microbial lab before release.

[mikethair]

My entire life (I’m now pushing 70) I have stayed away from synthetic fragrance. You won’t find them in my home or work environment.

We produce body wash, face wash, shampoo, soap. The function of these products is to cleanse and not much else. In our opinion EOs provide a more pleasant fragrance sensation. Our customers agree. Many appreciate something different to synthetic fragrances.

Yes, EO’s are pricy. At the end of the day it really depends where you position your product and your brand message.