mikethair
Forum Replies Created
-
Yes, Hurdle Technology worked for us.
We ran a GMP Certified factory for 20 years until March 2023 and employed Hurdle Technology for our shampoo, face wash, and body wash products. The main component of Hurdle Technology was the high pH of these products (around 9.5 pH). And appropriate packaging.
And over the 20 years, we manufactured for various Private Label customers around the world which required validation and Notifiaction in various countries, including the EU.
I should also mention that our factory had its own in-house laboratory, and results were regularly validated by external labs.
And on top of this, we were regularly inspected by the GMP Certifying authority.
So yes, Hurdle Technology can work.
-
I have always had very good results with Ohaus scales.
-
With pH meters, I would definitely go for new ones. If you buy secondhand there may be issues with the probes that need to be well looked after, and they have a limited life.
I have always had good results with OHAUS pH meters. It’s an American brand, and I have equipped many labs around the world with OHAUS pH meters.
-
To be sure, best to test.
-
I find it interesting that some are saying “Reduce oils to a minimum.”
Coming from a soap bar production mentality, our approach was exactly the opposite. We used all oils, and zero synthetics.
Our formulations included a mixture of hard and soft oils: Coconut (H), Olive (S), Rice Bran (S), Castor (S), Avacardo (S), Palm (H), and Palm (H). The challenge was to adjust the quantities of each oil to produce the shampoo bar you wanted. And this takes time, given that each bar is cured in a temperature/humidity-controlled environment for 30 days before we evaluated the shampoo bar.
Also in the mix were small amounts of Pomegranate oil, Horsetail extract, Nettle extract for their benefits to hair.
And finally, a fragrance blend of essential oils.
-
I have been formulating products for many years, including shampoo bars. We were manufacturing shampoo bars for our own brand, plus Private Label brands globally. With the current focus on plastic waste, shampoo bars can be a good seller.
You have done only four test bars? Crikey, with my first bars it took me a year to finally get a formulation to where I want it. Now, with the basic shampoo bar formulation perfected, it’s a lot quicker when I formulate Private Label orders taking into account the client’s requirements.
And with soap, you have the added complication of cure time. In our case, we cure soap bars for 30 days in a controlled temperature and humidity in a purpose-built cure room. And at the end of curing, we then test the bars. The quality of curing can impact significantly on any type of soap bar, including shampoo bars.
Also, for every test batch I record all data in Excel including the Batch Manufacturing Records (BMR). And it is these records that become important in soap bar testing and re-formulating.
-
We were producing a lot of this and exporting to various countries, including the US and Europe.
The INCI included:
For solid soap bars: sodium cocoate (coconut oil)
For liquids: potassium cocoate (coconut oil)
Over a period we never had any problems
-
I’m an Aussie living in the tropics, so I come up against this issue constantly.
Counter-intuitive to most, common sense to some – is that a good face oil blend can do wonders for dry skin. And I prefer these over lotions and creams.
I have been formulating and manufacturing for 20 years, and a well-formulated face oil has done wonders for the sales of my Private Label customers. In recent times it has become a high-demand product, outselling lotions/creams full of preservatives and synthetics.
And this is the prime advantage of a well-formulated face oil. You will not find fillers and other gunk that can complicate and aggravate your skin.
And I will usually formulate a number of oils in the product, depending on my client’s requirements. A single oil often does not come up to the mark.
A well-formulated face oil absorbs quickly and evenly into your skin, smoothing patchy skin. And when blending, and depending on my client’s requirements, I will formulate essential oils into the blend. For example, to convey a sense of well-being.
-
Counter-intuitive to most, common sense to some
– is that a good face oil blend can do wonders for dry skin. And I prefer these over lotions and creams.I have been formulating and manufacturing for 20 years, and a well-formulated face oil has done wonders for the sales of my Private Label customers. In recent times it has become a high-demand product, outselling lotions/creams full of preservatives and synthetics.
And this is the prime advantage of a well-formulated face oil. You will not find fillers and other gunk that can complicate and aggravate your skin.
And I will usually formulate a number of oils in the product, depending on my client’s requirements. A single oil often does not come up to the mark.
A well-formulated face oil absorbs quickly and evenly into your skin, smoothing patchy skin. And when blending, and depending on my client’s requirements, I will formulate essential oils into the blend. For example, to convey a sense of well-being.
-
Yes, I have access.
-
I can’t find your FB group THESKYN Majlis. Would be a good start if your group was easily visible.
-
In the cosmetics compliance system I worked within the NaOH would be a red flag at the product registration/notification stage.
From a consumer perspective, it would not be attractive as an ingredient.
Suggest you look at altenatives.
-
I have used CO2 Extracts in the past, and I find them very useful. But you will need to be an experienced formulator to make them work.
-
The soap formulation adopts the main elements of Hurdle Technology. And by definition, our approach combines a number of bacteria-inhibiting factors. With our liquid face wash, body wash, and shampoo include pH, heat treatment (71 to 100 C), and appropriate packaging, in our case pump bottles.
Also, some of the essential oils we used in finished products may have had bacteria-inhibiting factors. But these were never tested as the bases themselves all displayed bacteria-inhibiting factors.
And it is worth remembering the simplicity of our bases……shampoo is only potassium cocoate, and face wash potassium olivate. Our body washes a mixture of potassium cocoate, potassium palmate, and potassium soyate.
So, in our opinion, the reliance on our soap formulation is in fact Hurdle Technology.
-
Generally, what you describe are the protocols we adopted.
And after 20+ years of producing the same products, it’s a well-trodden path from our side.
Our overseas Private Label customers usually prefer to do the microbial testing themselves in-country and email the results for our records.
-
Yes, we use Hurdle Technology on our liquid shampoo, face wash, and body washes I have mentioned before.
And yes, like other manufacturers, our test batches go to our test consumers to confirm the basic product efficacy. This can take a lot of time. And we have spent upwards of 12 + months to get the test batches where we want them. And liked by our test consumers, before the formulation is finalized.
So yes, we do ask for data from our test consumers.
-
I retired. I’m now in my early 70s.
-
No.
In all of the cosmetics compliance parameters globally that we have complied with, “in-use data” is not a requirement.
Can you provide an example where “in-use data” is a requirement?
-
In my opinion as a chemist, defining a shampoo bar simply by pH is an oversimplification.
So I ask you again, what is the definition of a shampoo bar?
-
How would you, therefore, define a “shampoo bar”?
-
<div>
</div><div>I’m sorry, but it is a shampoo bar because that’s how it has been formulated. And yes, it is a soap. The formulation has oils that we would not use in regular soap bars. And as a result, it is a very different product. After 20 years of producing regular soap bars, we can tell the difference!!!
And more importantly, our Private Label customers globally loved these shampoo bars.
</div><div>
</div>
-
Hi ozgirl,
When you say “if you have too high of a level of oil even in soap-based bars there will be some reduction in foaming,” this has certainly not been our experience. The bars foam beautifully. And again it’s all to do with the selection of oils on which we spent many many many months and multiple trials. We usually do the trial bars in 1 Kg moulds. At the production stage use 12 Kg moulds, and five of these in each batch.
And I agree, “We might have to agree to disagree on this one.” Maybe someone will learn from my alternative approach. As a chemist and scientist, I like to escape the ordinary. It kept my Private Label customers globally coming back.
Thanks ozgirl from an oz guy.
Kind regards,
Mike
-
Hi ozgirl,
What you say is not correct. As specified in our batch manufacturing records, the coconut, olive, rice bran, castor, avocado, and palm oils are weighed and mixed, then saponified. Then small amounts of pomegranate, horsetail, and nettle are then added before the bar solidifies.
I should also add the saponification numbers for the coconut, olive, rice bran, castor, avocado, and palm oils were determined from the CoA provided with each oil, and the correct weight of NaOH was determined and then added.
Further, before we finalized the formulation we did a number of trials with the mix of coconut, olive, rice bran, castor, avocado, and palm oils, and in our laboratory we checked that there was no excess NaOH.
-
I’m easy, whatever suits you.
Kind regards,
Mike
-
I guess as a scientist I have a more critical eye than most when reviewing published papers. I note that the paper you have cited here by Brannan et.al is in fact written by P&G staff. While an interesting paper, it could never be considered as a critical, unbiased review of the correlation between in vito challenge testing with consumer testing for cosmetics.
Are you aware of any subsequent published papers reviewing these findings by Brannan et.al?
I also note that preservative adequacy was tested independently of container design. As we are all aware, container design is a big factor in protecting consumer skin care products.
And if container design provides adequate protection, even poorly preserved products would not be contaminated by consumer use. This aspect was not investigated.
And the final sentence “Additional studies are needed to assess these effects.” Yes, indeed. Have there been any additional studies?
In my opinion, while there is some merit in these findings by Brannan et.al, more work is required. Especially in determining the practicalities for manufacturers in adopting revised testing methods.