mikebavington
Forum Replies Created
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The high price is because you are not ordering a large amount and the supplier wants a certain minimum amount of money if he is going to fill an order. If another entity were to order 1000 times the amount you require, they might pay 30x less than you are being quoted.
Remember, price has very little to do with cost. A seller will charge you as much as he thinks you will accept. Because you are only ordering a small amount, your ability to negotiate is not as great. But, you still can talk to the supplier about the high costs and ask for a price drop.
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Coffee bean oil. It is a popular scent and very few people are allergic to it.
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I dont think it is right when members ask for complete formulas - from A TO Z - from other members. This happens most often with novice members asking for a complete formula from professionals. I understand why a professional would get upset with this.
Regarding my participation on this site, I try to answer to the best of my ability, even though I am an amateur and learning as I go along. When I give an answer, I usually have to do research, myself. This always enables me to learn something new that I didnt know before. Hence, I benefit by answering other people’s questions. For a professional, this might not hold true.
I would like to see professional formulators offering their advice on this forum, but allow novice members like myself to pay for that advice in smaller increments. For example, instead of paying a formulator $2,000 to help with a formula that I am 80% finished composing, I would like to be able to pay $100 - $150, maybe even $200; for specific advice regarding a specific problem with my formula.
It might take me two consultations with two different professional formulators on this site, and if I paid them $150 each, $300 total; I could finish any particular formula issue that might be holding me up. Many times, I dont need advice from the beginning, but I might be stuck on a preservative issue or an emulsifier issue.
Medical doctors do this on today’s medical internet sites. They charge anywhere from $17 - $50 and they answer patients medical questions online. I think it would be great to do something similar here. Perry would obviously get a fee for hosting the transaction.
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I know peels are permitted, but I think 30% might be against your country’s regulations. Where do you live?
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Is 30% salicyclic acid permitted in cosmetics products that arent intended to be diluted?
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I dont know about the U.S., but in Canada
1) Health Canada is going to increase regulation of natural health food stores and the products they sell
In Canada, the government can prevent you from getting healthcare in the public system (waiting lists) and now they are trying to increase regulation on alternative treatments. It never stops. Its amazing that dogs and cats in Ontario can receive private, for-profit care, but human beings cant.
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Lipo Chemicals
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Matt,
That is the problem with trying to formulate. If you use google and type in any ingredient, you will see a group of people warning against its use. Everyone thinks that man-made ingredients are all toxic and that anything that is ‘natural’ is 100% safe.
I always use the analogy of H2O. Water is essential for life. Drink it in small amounts - less than 4 litres a day - and you will be very healthy. But, drink even a medium volume of water - more than 20 litres - and you run the risk of serious health problems from too much water intake.
Does anyone remember the radio contestants who died from drinking too much water within a 2 hr period? Refer to that safety history the next time someone tells you that certain ingredients are toxic when consumed in large amounts.
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From my understanding,
Sodium Polyacrylate in tampons was a problem because the wet tampon was left inside the vaginal cavity for too long. The ladies were keeping the bloodied, wet, absorbant tampon inside them, without changing them out as required. The Sodium Polyacrylate, because it is so absorbant, was making the tampon extra moist. This additional moisture, combined with the bio-fluids and the duration of time the tampon was left in, caused the problem.
Basically, any fibrous material that becomes wet and sits for extended periods of time would produce the same problem. If diapers werent changed properly, one would have such a problem.
It would be like re-using toilet paper without disposing of it after each use. The paper, when wet and contaminated with bio-fluids, would breed bacteria and cause sickness. There would be nothing wrong with the toilet paper’s initial state, only that people kept reusing it.
I dont think Sodium Polyacrylate would pose the same problem in a lubricant. The Lubrajel Natural product that Robert directed you to doesnt contain sodium polyacrylate, I believe; however, United Guardian actually uses Sodium Polyacrylate in their medical grade Lubragels. These medical grade gels are designed to be used with applications that invade the inside of the human body.
You are free to use whatever ingredient you like.
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This is your website, right?
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You could approach wholesalers in your area and sell them on the idea of carrying your product. They would then offer it to their customers and through the supply chain, you would get shelf space in the market.
In order to find these wholesalers, look through your local library NAICS reference books. NAICS stands for North American Industry Classification System. It segments businesses based upon their primary business activity and that is the easiest way to find suitable business partners.
You might also search for flea market events and approach vendors at each flea market which already sell cosmetic products. Ask those vendors to carry your product.
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Potassium Sorbate is a very gentle preservative that can work well at lower ph values.
Sodium Polyacrylate - a.k.a. Waterlock - swells in water and holds that water very well. You might have sucess in using it as a lubricant.
Xylitol - natural sugar that has humectant properties and is effective at disrupting biofilms. Might be useful in regards to lubricants that are vaginal friendly.
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Can you tell me where you want these suppliers to be located and what weight of ingredients you want to order?
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In my experience, deodorant is hard to remove from the underarms.
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Develop a product that allows one to remove deodorant from underarms while in shower.
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Yes. I put deodorant into shot glasses yesterday and started adding different ingredients to see which one would dissolve or soften the deodorant over time.
Hydrogen Peroxide performed the best of the ingredients I did test, but i didnt have propanediol to compare.
I will try to get my hands on citrus derived ingredients as well and see if those work.
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If you are looking for ingredients, you might try:
Oil Phase:
Petrolatum
Mineral Oil
Dimethicone
Lanolin Wax or Oil
Beeswax
Paraffin Wax
Illipe Butter
Castor Oil
Macademia Nut Oil
Triglycerides
Stearic Acid
Zinc OxideWater Phase:
Glycerin
Sodium PCA
Propylene Glycol
Aloe Vera
Allantoin
Urea -
What is the name of the ester you are using?
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Ok. I will be in touch with you shortly.
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Grant Industries, out of NJ, with partners worlwide, distributes micronized zinc and micronized titanium dioxide dispersions that might interest you.
http://www.grantinc.com/cosmetics/uv/uv_cut_zno-61.php
They have a product called UV Cut ZnO-61, which is 60% micronized zinc oxide. If you wanted 5% actual zinc in your product, you could use 8.3% of this UV Cut ZnO-61 to get the equivalent.
The INCI of their product is: Zinc Oxide (and) Cyclopentasiloxane (and) PEG-10 Dimethicone.
Cyclopentasiloxane is volatile silicone and will evaporate quickly after it is applied on the skin. It will help with the viscosity, keeping the formula sprayable and easy to rub across the skin.
PEG-10 Dimethicone is a silicone derived surfactant that will help emulsify your formula. It will also provide moisturizing benefits because of the glycerol component. Thirdly, it will increase the SPF of your product.
Dimethicone will be good for your SPF rating as well, and if you wish, you can add Phenyl Trimethicone to increase the SPF rating even more.
Shoot for an SPF rating of 30. That is considered the ideal rating for sunscreen products. By using the Silicones, you can keep the low viscosity you need, but attain the SPF you want.
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HEC - Hydroxyethylcellulose. It is considered semi-natural.
Alginic Acid.
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What is naticide composed of? The INCI just says: Fragrance or Parfum.
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My costs will total $25,000, but I include marketing and legal, incorporation fees etc. And my estimate is in Canadian dollars, not pounds. So, I think that final quote of 20k - 30k pounds is too high.
Remember though, one important skill that all business people need to rely on is negotiation. You have to try and get something for less. Usually, someone will quote you 10% - 20% higher than they are willing to accept.
When somenoe says 20k - 30k as a range, that is a sign to you that there is plenty of room to negotiate on price. The fact that they cant even tell you within 10k (on a total price that wont
surpass 30k) indicates tremendous margin inclusion on their part and tremendous room for negotiaton.I know they will mention that the ingredient variables will cause the fluctuation in the quote, but as I said, the difference in cost of using 1 or 2 expensive ingredients within a formula versus using 100% run-of-the-mill, inexpensive ingredients is negligible when you are approaching 10,000 units. And considering most formulas are north of 70% water, the volume of actual ingredients used is relatively small.
I come from a discount store background where I ran a dollar store for 5 years, so I learned to negotiate everything. I once had a sales woman approach me and told me she wanted to get rid of her chocolate bars before she returned to Hungary. She offered them to me for $0.50 cent per unit, 2000 units in total, 100 grams of chocolate per unit. I offered her $0.15 cents per unit and we eventually agreed on $0.25. I am detailing this incident to show you that most people will come down in price from their inital quote. Everybody negotiates and you should too, or you will end up paying too much.
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1400 pounds to compose the formula and do all the testing is VERY GOOD. 2500 pounds to buy the formula is also extremly reasonable, considering you would be paying so little for compostion and testing in the beginning. As long as the manufacturer signs a non-compete clause and keeps the formula for your orders only, I would be happy with such an arrangement, at least in the beginning of your business venture..
The MOQ of 10,000 units is standard because when they order tubes/packaging for you, their order requirement is usually 10,000 packaging units.
The other company that quoted you for 1800 pounds - with you owning the formula outright - is making you a fantastic offer. I think you are getting good offers from these manufacturers.
If you can live with packaging that is more generic and already used for multiple products in the marketplace, you can have the MOQ dropped to 5,000 or below by some manufacturers. If they order common packaging in volume, they will have some extra packaging units in stock and you can negotiate on the MOQ as a result.
Remember though, it is not the ingredient cost or packaging cost that mostly determines the per unit manufacturing cost you will pay. It is the facilities, equipment, labour and profit costs that you have to cover when considering price quotes from manufacturers. The ingredient costs in any particular product are negligible. For my formula, I suspect the manufacturer can obtain the ingredients I need for less than 10 cents per unit. I will end up paying between $0.80 - $1.20 because of all the other costs I mentioned above.