MarkBroussard
Forum Replies Created
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It looks like you are really light on emulsifiers.
Also, without knowing your phases … ie: how you are forming the emulsion and the order of addition of the ingredients, it’s not really possible to help you.
My suspicion is that you don’t have enough emulsifer and it could also be related to the order of addition of the ingredients.
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You can add only 1 drop if you want to, no problem
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And while we’re at it … all these pathetic self-indulgent people all worried about their gender identities … Seriously, dress however you want to, have sex with whomever you want to and grow up. What I find most objectionable is that “They” have assimilated chemical terms into their lexicon … “I’m a cis-gender male pansexual” … SMH
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When I was a kid, we all lined up in the gymnasium and a local physician and nurse would come by for the day and everyone would get vaccinated at the same time. There was never any question about it … private catholic school so there was no saying “No” …
And, fast forward to where all these idiot celebrities (most of whom have probably been vaccinated, btw) popping off their anti-vaxx nonsense and putting other people and their children in danger. It’s like going back to the middle ages.
Doreen, lots of people go wacky-woo-woo reading that conspiracy nonsense on the internet.
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Yes, Sucragel is also problematic. These oils gels are simply not worth the effort. Remember, reading the fabulous claims in marketing materials and actually using those ingredients to make products can be two completely different things. But, if you really, really want to gain experience with these ingredients, keep trying. FWIW: I will never again try to develop a commercial product with either Sucragel or Sodium Surfactin.
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Try loading it in at 2% to 3% or a 3:1 ratio to essential oils
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One thing the world will never find lacking is a shortage of idiots … LOL!
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https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/6226/watery-cream#latest
It’s an emulsifier that creates the effect: EcoDropGel … see discussion above
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Doreen said:Good that you mention the danger of ‘colloidal silver’ ingestion, @Perry.
I know someone who drinks this stuff and describes all kinds of magical effects to it (I wonder when her skin will start looking like this).Now that is funny s*it, Doreen. The caption should read “the rare medical term for this blue skin pigment condition is Stupidity”
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I almost always use PolySugaMulse D9 … magic in a bottle … you can get small amounts from Formulator Sample Shop.
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Thanks @ngarayeva001
I’ve never actually researched the topic, but that would seem to be a very plausible explanation.
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I am not absolutely certain, bit I think It really all depends on what surfactants you are using to begin with. Say you are using Coco-Glucoside (non-ionic) as a primary surfactant … I find it highly unlikely that adding SLS (anionic) to the mix would make the Coco-Glucoside less irritating.
It could be simply a matter that adding a second surfactant that is less irritating than the primary surfactant helps because you simply have less of the irritating primary surfactant in your total surfactant load.
As an aside … you combine two surfactants together in a cleanser … how do the surfactants know which one is the primary surfactant which one is the secondary surfactant? … I say that because the whole concept is rather ridiculous to me.
Rather, focus on the type of surfactants you are combining together … Anionic surfactant irritancy may be reduced by combining with a non-ionic surfactant, for instance. Same concept as when you combine surfactants of different types (anionic + amphoteric, etc.) to build viscosity.
If your son has Eczema, I’d take a good look at combining Sodium Cocoyl Oat Amino Acids + Sodium Cocoyl Glycinate as a mild, non-irritating surfactant base.
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Yes, this “study” is quite laughable …
What the study does indicate is that using the cream is better than using nothing at all. I don’t think they were testing specifically for the ceramide per-se, but for the combination of a specific synthetic ceramide coupled with PEA and the plant extracts which all happen to be ingredients in NeoCera cream.
The fact that the study was conducted in a clinician’s private practice screams Corporate Funded Study.
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It’s safe and if you are pre-mixing it immediately before use, you really do not have to be concerned with microbial contamination. The silica and titanium dioxide are anticaking/flow agents included in small amounts … no worries there either.
Check with the manufacturer to see what preprocessing they have done in making the product … perhaps it has already been heat treated.
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These types of Oil Gel emulsifier/surfactant mixtures are tricky and sometimes yield a stable product, sometimes not.
What I have found is that they work best with oils with high Oleic Acid content and low Linoleic Acid content … ie: The saturated, solid oils like Coconut, Babassu, etc. work fine, but Grapeseed Oil, for instance will not gel.
You don’t need high shear as in homogenization, but you do need to add the oils to the premix very slowly while stirring at 1,000+ RMP.
You might try adding a solubilizer to the mix, that might help.
Also, if you are doing this for commercial production, they don’t scale up easily. They’re really cool when they do work, but I have not found the format to be worth the effort as they also tend to be heat sensitive and melt.
The manufacturer is a Japanese company, forget the name, but they visited with me a couple of years ago when they were introducing the product. At that time, at $800/Kg … it was easy to pass on using it.
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Here’s some info from BASF
http://creationsnewsletter.com/issue3/3.aspx
pH stability
It is very important to consider the pH of the system when using Zinc Oxide. At pH below 7, divalent zinc ions will migrate into the water phase and cause instability in the system, as Zn2+ can interact with various polymers (rheology modifiers and film formers) and emulsifiers (e.g.salts of stearic acid). Many acrylate-derived polymers are sensitive to Zn2+, forming complexes leading to the disruption of the polymer matrix and loss of stability. These reactions are even more pronounced with the uncoated Zinc Oxide. It has been found that chelating agents (e.g. Na2EDTA) and some salts (e.g. NaCl) in the aqueous phase can help reduce the extent of these interactions. During formulation, the pH of the system may rise, therefore it is recommended that buffering agents such as citric or lactic acid, or others be used. -
Stearic Acid will react with ZnO at 154C or in the presence of a catalyst such as Phosphoric Acid at 60C to 70C. Neither of those conditions are going to occur in a cosmetic product … so it simply does not have any significance as it regards ZnO in a MgCl cream product, particularly if the ZnO is added at cool down temperatures below 60C. They simply will not react under those conditions.
I don’t know that anyone has ever studied the dissolution of ZnO in an acidic cream product containing Cl ions. But, ZnO very readily dissolves in HCl solution to form ZnCl2. When you dissolve MgCl2 in water, you’re going to have Cl ions in solution … twice as many Cl ions as you do when you dissolve NaCl in water. The hexahydrate of Mg2+ (aq) can form hydronium ions … protonated water. Since ions in solution are simply charge densities interacting with one another, the dissolved Cl ions will be attracted to the protons … that’s HCl.
Of course, this is not a pissing contest nor a competition … we’re both accustomed to using chemical theory to explain empirical observations.
So, the empirical observation is that a MgCl solution using USP-grade material has a pH of 5.0. Zechstein salts have a pH of 4.0.
” pH can range from 5.5 to 7. If it’s lower, it has to be due to contaminants and since most of the common contaminants of magnesium chloride do not affect pH …”
^^^ Exactly the point … if the contaminants do not affect pH, then it is not the contaminants causing the pH drop … it has to be some form of acid. -
No, not at all. Have you ever actually dissolved MgCl in water and measured the pH and temperature or actually made a MgCl cream/product? It would appear that you have not.
Not to be argumentative, but your assertion that the pH drop is from undefined “contaminants” is what is ridiculous … the chemistry is quite straightforward. And, a simple measurement of pH proves the point.
Stearic Acid & Zinc Oxide … that has nothing to do with the topic of this discussion.
The Op’s issue is whether or not to add ZnO to a MgCl cream … that’s just not a good idea since it is highly likely that the Zinc Oxide will dissolve and would not provide the envisioned skin protectant benefits.
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So, in adding ZnO to a solution of MgCl2 there are two routes to decompositon of ZnO to ZnCl2:
2HCl + ZnO = ZnCl2 + H2O
and/or
MgCl2 + ZnO = ZnCl2 + MgO in a double replacement reaction.
Since Mg is more reactive than Zn, the reaction will be driven to the right.
So, for the OP, no, it is not a good idea to mix Zinc Oxide in your Magnesium Chloride cream … the Zinc Oxide will convert to Zinc Cloride which defeats the whole purpose of add Zinc Oxide to begin with.
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It’s a simple exothermic dissociation “reaction”:
MgCl2 + H20 = Mg(OH)2 + 2HCl
Water surrounds the Mg ions forming a Magnesium hexahydrate complex and the mixture has a stable pH in the range 4.0 to 5.0 -
I just made a solution of 5% MgCl USP grade … the pH is 5.0 at 23.8C. The contaminants is the UPS grade MgCl are .005% or less and there really isn’t anything in the contaminants list that will for an acid in solution.
I also made a 30% solution of Zechstein salts (my bad on the misspelling) the pH is 4.16 at 23.8C.
I agree that Zechstein salts are marketed quite effectively and that the claims are “creative”. But, I do not think that they are refined to the purity of a USP-grade material, so they will obviously contain a higher proportion of “contaminants” … but that’s precisely why consumers in the naturopathic market prefer Zechstein salts.
Perhaps I should not believe my lying pH meter.
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I think part of the misunderstanding here is the assumption that salts are netural. In fact, salts can be acidic, neutral or basic in solution. In water, they dissociate into the conjugate acid-base pairs. Solid MgCl will not react with ZnO, but dissolved MgCl is an acidic salt. ZnO is soluble in HCl and dissolves to form ZnCl. Since Zeichstein salts are not pure MgCl, there could be other components that contribute to the acidity besides the MgCl itself.
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Well, one major difference would be that you are comparing the effect of 10% to 15% Zeichstein Salts MgCl to trace amounts of NaCl if it is used as a processing aid. While NaCl may be a common contaminant, you’re talking more on the order of 0.01% or less.
I can tell you from experience having developed 4 commercial MgCl Cream products that the pH of a 30% Zeichstein Salt MgCl solution is 4.0. Simple fact from direct experience.
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It’s a lot easier to change an LOI on a website than it is to print new labels or boxes if you make a change in formulation … think of the cost differential between those two options and as a bonus there is no waste generated.
Time to trade in those flip top phones!
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First of all … what Hydrogen Peroxide are you using? Is it a 50% solution or a 35% solution. If you are using 5% of a 50% Hydrogen Peroxide, your effective load of HP is 2.5%. That’s less than what you buy at the supermarket which is typically a 3% HP load. So, you’d be better off just going to a drug store, buying a bottle of HP and pouring it on your skin.