[marinaartm]

I added just 1% of castor oil, combined with saw palmetto oil and safflower oil at phase C and then added the preservative and the essential oils and the formula separated. Maybe i can add the vegetable oils in phase A?
Or should i use an emulsifier? Any suggestions?

[marinaartm]

Graillotion said:

You could sure take a look at adding triethyl citrate.

If I were making one….it would be in there.  (I don’t make one….but I’ve thought about it more than once.)

Funny, right before seeing your comment i ordered triethyl citrate to use in the formulation. 
Another option is magnesium hydroxide.
Triethyl citrate works on the acidic Ph and magnesium hydroxide on the basic PH so they work differently. 

Thank you for the suggestion @Graillotion

[marinaartm]

ketchito said:

@marinaartm I believe @Paprik questions were very fair.

On one hand, pH measurement needs a polar media (like water, which you don’t have in your initial formula). You can have a reading of course, but that would be from a single ingredient (like Glycerine). 

Also, Vitamin E alone might not be powerful enough to protect your system, so you might need to consider another AOx.

An emulsifier in a waterless formula is not necessary. But because of the lack of a water phase, Glycerine might not be properly incorporated in your mixture (8% is actually very high), and that might also explain the drops you see. 

The second formulation i just made, with mct oil and almond oil does not have the droplets anymore. It seems fine, the only problem is that it does not keep the odor gone for long.
So i am thinking that i should put an ingredient that has antibacterial properties, maybe glycolic acid or/and an antibacterial oil. And also add water so i can disolve the acid and properly take the PH
What do you think @ketchito ?

[marinaartm]

Also, i am thinking of adding to the formula glycolic acid in a max of 5% because i researched it would be a good addition for the underarm area so i would like to try. But for that i need to add at least 10% water in order to dissolve it. I have never worked with glycolic acid so if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know

Thank you!

[marinaartm]

Paprik said:

The formula has more issues than “condensation”.

1. Can you tell me how did you measure the pH?

2. You are using lipids that go rancid very easily, do you think 0.1% of an antioxidant will make sure the product will be fine for more then couple of months? 

3. Not sure why are you using emulsifier, if you are not creating any type of emulsion? 

Finally, what you are experiencing is (most likely) syneresis - Please check polarity of all lipids. I believe Squalane is non (or low) polar lipid, that could cause the issue. Try to remove it, update the formula and try again. 
(you are not supposed to mix polar and non-polar lipids together)

Hope that helps.

Hi @Paprik !

1. I measure it with special paper at about 68 C. I know, not very exact due to the type of measuring and to the temperature but even if i will measure with a Ph meter, the temperature still it’s too high. Any suggestions on this? 
2. I think you are right so i will increase it to 0,5%
3. I saw this recipe and the fact that Olivem 1000 provides a good glide, plus the recipe i did does feel nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nPuXIAOCg
I made another try today with MCT oil and almond oil only and until now it seems it has no problem.
I will check the polarity of oils.
Thank you so  much for your help!

[marinaartm]

Should i add the glycerin in water? maybe 10% water? Not sure how that will change the whole composition, plus i will need to add a preservative. 

[marinaartm]

Microformulation said:

What is keeping the 8% Glycerin (water soluble) from separating from your anhydrous product?

I thought the emulsifier Olivem 1000+the co-emulsifier Cetearul alcohol are the ones that help integrate glycerin in the formula

[marinaartm]

Cafe33 said:

marinaartm said:

Cafe33 said:

Your shampoo is all glucosides? Have you ever tested this surfactant mix you are suggesting? It could be quite irritating. Panthenol just gets rinsed off anyway, it won’t stick to hair in a shampoo. 

I wanted to make the formula to be considered natural, hence why i used those surfactants. The formula was a bit too thin so i’m considering trying again and adding 0,25% xanthan gum to phase B. So if you think i should change the formula a bit for the surfactants also, please let me know.

Thank you!

I am not much of a fan of decyl glucoside in large inputs. I think you are working a little backwards. My suggestion is to use an anionic surfactant, add an amphoteric like CAPB and lower the input of non-ionic surfactants. The best “affordable” sulfate free formula I developed utilizes sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, decyl glucoside, CAPB, Lamesoft PO65 and a thickener. I use polymers as thickeners but if you are looking to use Xanthan gum, try it but it will not have as nice a feel.

The main surfactant is the anionic. It is a good product but no where near the “regular” shampoo I make using a sulfate (ALS) blend. I am a beginner headed to an intermediate stage when it comes to shampoos, so take my advice with that fact in consideration.     

Sounds like a good combo. I will see where i can find sodium lauryl sarcosinate. Although i am thinking the regular consumer might confuse it with SLS.

[marinaartm]

Svemirska_baklava said:

@marinaartm Well, as @Fekher mentioned sodium ricinoleate and PEG-40 HCO can indeed serve as foam boosters, but they easily fail even in big ration compared to for example coco betaine, decyl glucoside or glucoside (more importantly different sulfates and oxides surfactants improve the foam greatly). If you are really adding the castor oil only for the foam, why risk it with the oiliness that regular castor oil can provide to formula?

Foam, as mentioned before many times has nothing to do with effectiveness of shampoo but marely with the perception the user has (I do agree this matters as well) so, if you want oils as claim ingredients add them in small percentage (less then 1% combined) and leave at it. But, doing that you are reinforcing the perception of consumers that oils in shampoo do help, so hell be damned, why do that also? 

I will try to use the oils in a lower percentage as you suggested. I wanted to use Coco Betaine but it seems it has some negative effects aswell so i’ll just stick to the glucosides

[marinaartm]

I am sure that is true, however i have noticed that for example castor oil increases the foam a lot to any shampoo i added it to. 
I guess the logical option would be to add it to Phase A because adding it to at the end of the formulation might make the formula separate faster.
What do you guys think?

[marinaartm]

Cafe33 said:

Your shampoo is all glucosides? Have you ever tested this surfactant mix you are suggesting? It could be quite irritating. Panthenol just gets rinsed off anyway, it won’t stick to hair in a shampoo. 

I wanted to make the formula to be considered natural, hence why i used those surfactants. The formula was a bit too thin so i’m considering trying again and adding 0,25% xanthan gum to phase B. So if you think i should change the formula a bit for the surfactants also, please let me know.

Thank you!

[marinaartm]

Microformulation said:

The shampoo is designed to remove oils, so it honestly will have little, if any real benefit.

Still, i would like to try it. In what phase would you advise me to put the vegetable oil?

Thank you a lot!

[marinaartm]

Cafe33 said:

Your shampoo is all glucosides? Have you ever tested this surfactant mix you are suggesting? It could be quite irritating. Panthenol just gets rinsed off anyway, it won’t stick to hair in a shampoo. 

Hi! I tested it and it was not irritating for me but i did read these are mild surfactants so never thought they could be irritating for anyone.
Do you have any suggestions about changing or adding anything else? Should i maybe reduce the % of surfactants?

Thank you!

[marinaartm]

@MarkBroussard I got to this suggestion of yours ( Coco-Glucoside and Glyceryl Oleate + Sucrose Stearate ) searching for an alternative for a leave in solution/serum for hair. Would it work also with grapeseed oil, jojoba oil, almond oil and a few extracts? What is the % you recommend for around 8% oil?
Thank you so much!

[marinaartm]

@Belassi @crillz
Would you be so kind to tell me which of the extracts are electrolytes? I haven’t found any information about that. 
Thank you so much!

[marinaartm]

@Fekher our oils are: 2% almond oil, 2% grapeseed oil, 1% apricot oil, 2% jojoba oil  and macadamia oil 1%
Not sure how to calculate the HLB. Could you please help me out? 
Thank you so much!

[marinaartm]

BTMS-50 seems like a good choice if i wanted to make a conditioner. But it is ok for a toner? For a very fluid solution?

Thank you!

[marinaartm]

So Emulsan(methyl glucose sesquistearate) 3% combined with glyceril stearate: 2% +2% cetearyl alcohol+0,3% xanthan gum ?
For the 4 preservatives i saw them all 4 everytime i looked in natural creams. Apparently Phenoxyethanol & Ethylhexylglycerin do not offer enough protection, or that’s what it’s stated. For Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate i just wanted to put 0,1% and for the first 2 i will put 1%

Thank you!

[marinaartm]

And for the preservatives i’m going to use: Phenoxyethanol & Ethylhexylglycerin, Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate 

[marinaartm]

I searched for Sensocream but it’s only available in a few countries. I sent a message to the producer to maybe get a sample.
As for my recipe, i am not sure which one of my ingredients have electrolytes so i can remove them or put a smaller percentage.
Also i read somewhere that i should use at least 2 emulsifiers and 2 stabilizers.
So i am thinking of maybe using this : Emulsan(methyl glucose sesquistearate) 3% combined with glyceril stearate: 2% +2% cetyl alcohol+0,3% xanthan gum and at the end adjust PH with Lactic acid instead of citric acid
What do you think? It is enough emulsifier and stabilizer? Will this cream not be too thick to put an atomizer?

Thank you so much for all the help!

[marinaartm]

ngarayeva001 said:

Try Arlacel 165. It works with a high amount of electrolytes. It worked pretty much everywhere.

Hi!

Unfortunately i need to make the cream PEG free so i can’t use Arlacel 165

Thank you!

[marinaartm]

crillz said:

Yeah agree with belassi, I’m not sure if the citric acid is going to like the high electrolytes too much, hence making it runny. If I’m reading it right you are putting your xanthan in after the emulsion. Try mixing the xanthan and the glycerin together and then adding it to your water phase. A bit more emulsifier and pump up the revs on the mixer. Also presume you are putting your emulsifier in with your oil phase. 

Hi!

Thank you for answering. I will try to put the xathan gum with glycerin and heat it up with the extracts
So for method 2 maybe put cetearyl alcohol 3% and cetearyl glucoside 2%  and xanthan gum 0,3% ?
1. Method 1: both emulsifiers in oil phase
2. Method 2: cetearyl alcohol in oil and cetearyl glucoside in water, xanthan gum at final
3. Method 3: both emulsifiers in oil

Thank you!

[marinaartm]

Belassi said:

It seems to me that you’re not using sufficient emulsifier. It seems likely that there’s a very high amount of electrolytes present.
Also, I doubt that even 0.1% of resveratrol powder is going to be soluble in this combination.
Method 2 sounds horrible with 1% xanthan gum, gummy gummy gumdrops.
I would use method 1 but increase the % of both emuslfiers.

Hi and thank you for your answer!
I need to say that i am a newbie and please be so kind to tell me which of the substances are electrolytes.
For method 2, xanthan gum is not 1% but 0,2%
” Cetearyl alcohol: 2%+   cetearyl glucoside:1%    +   xanthan gum: 0,2% “
I will try your suggestion about method 1

Thank you so much!