[MariaSibon]

ggpetrov said:

Manischemicals, Aurorasense, Youmakecosmetics - Greek sites. Glamourcosmetic - Italian. Alexmo cosmetic, Dragonspice - German.

Many Thanks, I have experience with some of them, but some I didn’t know

[MariaSibon]

Hello, So what is your concern?

If you need more hold, use only ceteareth-25 to succeed a harder paste, or include a fixative in the formula. Increase Peg-7 Glyceryl Cocoate and Peg-40 Hydr. castor oil to make the mixture more easy to handle.

I am interested to rad any updates and if you tested your formula.

[MariaSibon]

Hello,

Did you have any success? if you are not using any fixative, you need to have your ceteareth 25/30 at least at 25% to succeed a good hold. Best wishes!

[MariaSibon]

Regarding the suppliers, Silica Dimethyl Silylate can be also sourced by Sensient as Covasillic15.
I am very interested to the fumed silicas chemistry so let us know if you had any luck by changing from hydrophobic to hydrophillic.

[MariaSibon]

Dear @ngarayeva001,

Thank you very much.
Annex iii/287 allows even higher concentrations for behentrimmonium chloride, 5%,3% and 3% respectively. 

We currently have stock of cetrimmonium chloride.

Do you have any experience on comparing the performance between cetrimmonium versus behentrimmnoium chloride? I am wondering if it worths to invest on the latter one as it allows higher concentrations.

[MariaSibon]

ketchito said:

@MariaSibon Annex V is for approved preservarives. Since you are using those cationics as condirioning agents, you should use Annex III (ref 286).

Dear @ketchito, thank you very much for the clarification.

According to Annex III/286, it can be used in higher concentrations, which agrees with the published opinion : 2,5% for rinse off, 1,0% for hair leave-on, 0,5% for face leave-on. 

It makes absolutely no sense to me, (what is it is use as conditioning or preservative, as long is the same compound?) but for the time being is very convenient to comply with Annex III.

[MariaSibon]

ngarayeva001 said:

here:

INCI	%
Aqua	82.8%
EDTA	0.2%
Phenonip	1.0%
BTMS-25	10.0%
Behentrimonium chloride	3.0%
Dimethicone	2.0%
Fragrance	0.3%

This is my formula, and it does a good job for my wavy and very coarse hair.
I don’t have any cationic gums because 2 emulsifiers are sufficient, in my opinion. Since I use BTMS 25, I don’t have any cetyl alcohol, but you need to adjust it if your version is 50%. Don’t add more than 0.1% of oils. Don’t expose it to too much high shear (overhead stirrer if you have it). Add polyquaternium 7 if you really want.

Thank you for your input, I have a customer that has an even simpler/budjet formula that is not that bad for the hair but needs improvement. I am looking into replacing or at least reducing cetrimmonium chloride to comply with regulation. I was surprised to read the Cosing Anex V/44 refering to cetrimmonium or behentrimmonium chloreide allows only up to 0.1%. Does not specify if there is another case for rinse-off products. 
The last update was on 2015, whereas there is an opinion for the safey when used other than preservative (?) that allows higher concentrations, even for leave-on products.
I am confused…

Is your behetrimmonium chloride 30% active, meaning you are actually using 0.9%? 
Is there anything else valid in your country?
Thank you in advance.

[MariaSibon]

Newtoformulating said:

MariaSibon said:

Newtoformulating said:

@Fekher Thanks for the words of encouragement! The final texture is a like that of a creamy peanut butter. Not waxy or oily. The final hold is a soft firm hold. It’s not a crunchy hold like I experienced using PVP

@evchem2 yes I do understand what you are saying and will evaluate my formula again because if an ingredient is not needed then I won’t include it. Thanks for your response and helping me with critical thinking and reevaluating my formula!

@MariaSibon definitely reevaluate your preservation system! When I used Optiphen Plus (Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, and Sorbic Acid)
my system was WEAK! I’m looking now to build a stronger preservation system and also using preservative boosters to make my system even stronger. I too had an issue at 1 month post accelerated conditions where my sample turned white from clear with no explanation. I’m still puzzled as to what happened but I’m almost certain the preservative I was using (Optiphen plus) was the issue. My pH wasn’t affected just the clarity. See photo.

@Newtoformulating

Thank you for your comment.
As I explain below, I was not worried for the preservation system as my challenge test and 18 months micro was clean. I may be wrong of course, still researching that.
In my case I think is the degradation of the colourant upon other ingredient with the heat effect. But I still research, that is why I asked and I am open to opinions.

It may be your preservative, but not from the point of view of preservation efficacy, but rather stability/chemical interaction with the other ingredients.

I dont think it is a good idea to have sorbic acid in your preservative mixture and have a neutral or higher ph, as it looses its effect. Also since your are using acrylates copolymer/AMP system, you will never manage to have an acidic pH, as the acrylates copolymer will loose its function. 
My guess is that the cloudiness in your product is a reaction of sorbic acid with AMP, that created the respective salt. Do a test and lower the pH <6. The viscosity will change, but does it become less cloudy?

Did you have this reaction also with other phenoxyethanol mixtures without sorbic acid?

I’m not sure as I’ve discontinued all Phenoxyethanol use. I did conclude that it may have been the sorbic acid reacting to another ingredient but didn’t dig deep enough to see which one. Your theory that the sorbic acid reacted with the AMP makes sense to me. I’ve since switched to Euxyl k940 as a preservative and will play around with my formulation a little more today. Yes I did realize I used the wrong preservative as opposed to my higher pH level. Euxyl k940 is more pH friendly to my formulation. I am now having an issue with dissolving ceteareth-25 in water. I’ve dissolved it separately in the oil phase and heated the water and oil phases to the same temp and mixed them together only for the ceteareth-25 to clump up and I’ve also put water and ceteareth-25 in the same vessel, heated and dissolved them together but the ceteareth-25 never completely dissolved. It may be because I’m using it at 23% of my formula but any lower percent the end formulation will not become solid. So any suggestions that way will be much appreciated. Also, do you think there is an issue with my pH being close to 7 with a hair gel product? I know that’s not a typical pH for this type of hair product but there’s really no way around it with the acrylates copolymer and AMP system that Im using. Thank you and please keep me posted on your research with your formula and your findings.

Hello, apologies I missed this discussion.
I hope you already managed to solve your problems.
regarding Ceteraeth-25 solubility to water, you just need to use high temperature up to 85 C. I use upo to 30% in some formulations with no issue.
No issue this product at ph 7, I believe as this is the only cases for many styling products based on carbomer thickeners. 

If you want to make your pH lower and use other preservation system, just get read of Acudyne 1000, fixative function can be succeed only with high concentrations of your “surfactant gel”.

DId Euxyl k940 worked well for you? 
In my trials I conclude that instabilities occur most probably due to the colourant I use. Addition of EDTA in my formula seems to help.

[MariaSibon]

Hello, 

My suggestions:

1) if you want a thin and light gel keep your Carbopol NMT 0.5%, as already suggested and you observed yourself.
2) You could replace Peg-40 Hyd.Castor oil with polysorbate 20 solubiliser, it might affect slightly your viscosity and make it thinner.
3) You need to succeed clarity by adjusting your oils: solubiliser ratio.
Your initial suggestion includes 2,5% oil (i presume preservative is in the oily phase, if not then 1,5%  and I ignore the effect of Vp/VA polymer) and you are using only 4% solubiliser, I can tell from the picture that the thick gel is not crystal clear. In the second case you decreased the solubiliser, but if you keep the same oils ratio, that is why you get a milky gel. 
4) For a very natural hold of curly hair, 2% might be ok, for a “normal” hold at least 6% is recommended, but this is something you need to decide yourself based on your product application.

[MariaSibon]

Newtoformulating said:

@Fekher Thanks for the words of encouragement! The final texture is a like that of a creamy peanut butter. Not waxy or oily. The final hold is a soft firm hold. It’s not a crunchy hold like I experienced using PVP

@evchem2 yes I do understand what you are saying and will evaluate my formula again because if an ingredient is not needed then I won’t include it. Thanks for your response and helping me with critical thinking and reevaluating my formula!

@MariaSibon definitely reevaluate your preservation system! When I used Optiphen Plus (Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, and Sorbic Acid)
my system was WEAK! I’m looking now to build a stronger preservation system and also using preservative boosters to make my system even stronger. I too had an issue at 1 month post accelerated conditions where my sample turned white from clear with no explanation. I’m still puzzled as to what happened but I’m almost certain the preservative I was using (Optiphen plus) was the issue. My pH wasn’t affected just the clarity. See photo.

@Newtoformulating

Thank you for your comment.
As I explain below, I was not worried for the preservation system as my challenge test and 18 months micro was clean. I may be wrong of course, still researching that.
In my case I think is the degradation of the colourant upon other ingredient with the heat effect. But I still research, that is why I asked and I am open to opinions.

It may be your preservative, but not from the point of view of preservation efficacy, but rather stability/chemical interaction with the other ingredients.

I dont think it is a good idea to have sorbic acid in your preservative mixture and have a neutral or higher ph, as it looses its effect. Also since your are using acrylates copolymer/AMP system, you will never manage to have an acidic pH, as the acrylates copolymer will loose its function. 
My guess is that the cloudiness in your product is a reaction of sorbic acid with AMP, that created the respective salt. Do a test and lower the pH <6. The viscosity will change, but does it become less cloudy?

Did you have this reaction also with other phenoxyethanol mixtures without sorbic acid?

[MariaSibon]

PhilGeis said:

Just phenoxyethanol.  That is a poor system.  You’ve nothing to address fungi.  Please understand, merely passing a challenge test is not enough - such tests are not validated to anything.
You should design a system vs bacteria and fungi and then test to confirm expected efficacy.

@PhilGeis

Thank you for your comment.

Apologies I missed to mention the preservative is a mixture of phenoxyethanol 0.9% , glyceryl laurate 0.1%, the second as an adsorption enhancer boosts phenopxyethanol efficancy to microorganisms. 
Also I forgot to mention I use colourants to the formulation which I think this causes the stability issues to my formula as it fades away in 2 months accelerated condition in a black packing.

Why you think a challenge test is not enough? The challenge test performed was as per ISO 11930, that include 5 microrganisms (3 bacteria, 2 fungi).
I also have a control sample that 18 month micro analysis was clean versus all those microorganisms.

My preservative may not be the strongest in the market but do I need a stronger one if I have these results? Also taking into account the nature of the product consisting of 30% of a surfactant and allowing low water activity due to its physical state I would consider it a rather low risk contamination product. That is why I do not think my stabilities issues has to do with the preservation system, but with my ingredients. Open to your suggestions, thank you.

[MariaSibon]

However, I have stability problems as I noticed a pH drop especially in 1 month accelerated conditions. (from 5.9 to 5).

My ingredients are 
aqua, ceteareth-25, propylene glycol, peg 7 glyceryl cocoate, peg 40 hydrogenated castor oil, polysorbate 20, parfum, phenoxyethanol and glyceryl laurate.

Does anyone has any suggestions what could be causing the ph drop? I rule out microorganism growth,as this is checked.

Could it be an issue with ceteareth-25 degradation to acids?

[MariaSibon]

hello, I am using Phenoxyethanol 1% for a aqua pomade with 25-30% ceteareth-25 and challenge test and 18 months microbiological analysis responds well.

[MariaSibon]

Hello.

My experience is, when I tried to incorporate ready premixed blend product of glycol distearate (Glycol Distearate (and) Sodium Laureth Sulfate (and) Cocamide MEA), I noticed stability may be affected from the method used in dissolving the material and also the final viscosity of the product. If you dissolve first the material efficiently in low viscosity mixture and then increase viscosity will do better than vice versa. Viscosity can be increased by certain surfactant products and also increasing total quantity of surfactants, even if not using any extra thickeners such as carbomers and gums. I also did not use cationic guar.
I first diluted the premixed paste in the SLES solution and then added all the remaining surfactants. Using a high concentration of surfactants which results in high viscosity and using no further suspending agents,  I did not see a separation after 2 years shelf time.
When I tried this pearlescent mixture in a lower viscosity mixture (similar mixture of surfactants but lower concentration) I saw separation in 1 month. 

The shampoo you mention must be first of all quite thick.
Secondly maybe the cationic guar and maltodextrin helps into suspending the glycol destearate, however, there are a lot of ingredients listed I have no experience at all.
Fore sure the premixed blend of the pearlescent agent with me much easier to incorporate (already includes some surfactants as “suspending agents”).

 

[MariaSibon]

Hello,
I am a chemist with experience in various fields, academicallly I was involved in environmental cleaning chemistry, then I moved into pharmaceuticals formulation and manufacturing and then into cosmetology. I am currently working in cosmetics/detergents factory involved in  formulation and QC.
Although I have certain knowledge and experience, I still consider myself a beginner in cosmetics formulation and manufacturing which I am willing to learn more. This forum is a gem with various fruitful discussions, Thank you for accepting my registration and I am willing to be an active member.