Lindsey1009
Forum Replies Created
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ngarayeva001 said:Sodium Carbomer is a nice gelling agent but it won’t hold that blend. Lotioncrafter and makingcosmetics sell ZEN. It’s a useful ingredient to have in general, so might want to consider it.You’re right- I just tried it this afternoon and feel apart like emt. Thank you again
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Thank you all for the ideas! I reached out to FSS about this issue and they said they could not comment because they don’t sell EMT. I am pretty annoyed as its their acid ingredient, and they should be able to give me an explanation. Do you guys think I can use high weight HLA + xanthan/guar mix as the gelling agent? I already tried with the HLA alone and it turned out OK, but still much too thin for my taste. Otherwise, I will buy some Zen. I do have some sodium carbomer as well..
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Doreen said:Hibiscus is quite acidic as well. I’ve had a hydroglycolic Hibiscus extract that had a pH of 2.5.
I think the Sepinov EMT 10 is overwhelmed by the acids (thus electrolytes) in your formula.
Yeah, I guess I just cant use fruit acids with Septinov emt for some reason?
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ngarayeva001 said:AHAs need to be low pH to have any visible effect. But don’t be surprised if that fruit acid complex creates pH significantly lower than 3. Another possibility is that one of your extracts has salts. Try a knockout experiment
I remade this exact formula with water in place of extracts and even replaced the aloe with water. I made the serum and it gelled perfectly. I decided to add the fruit acids last and the gel immediately fell out and turned back to water consistency. It is 100% the fruit acids that don’t work with the septinov emt. I just don’t understand why? Everywhere online it says that it should work. I even changed the ph and still the same result. I tried making the same formula with HMWHA and gelled just fine. I suppose I could make it with HLA, I am just trying to understand why the gelling agent doesn’t work. It is bothering me lol
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ngarayeva001 said:What is the pH? I suspect that it’s lower than Sepinov can tolerate, as I don’t see pH adjusters in your formula. Make sure your pH is above 3 because lower can cause a lot of irritation for people with sensitive skin, and probably replace Sepinov EMT 10 to Sepimax Zen. It’s better with acids. Also made by Seppic and sold by lotioncrafter. You can also find it under name GelMaker PH from makingcosmetics.
Thanks for the tips. I really appreciate it.
I read that this type of fruit acid behaves differently than other AHAs like Lactic and Glycolic acid. It said I don’t need to adjust the pH. But I agree, that’s odd and doesn’t make sense.
But on a side note- shouldn’t other AHAs have a lower PH for efficacy reasons? I read that the pH for glycolic acid for example, should be a little above 3. Although it may cause a few minutes of slight stinging, it allows the acids to be absorbed much better. The higher pH allows for little to no absorption at all. The other day I tested this out and make a Glycolic face mask with a PH of around 3 and one around 5.5. The one with the lower PH gave a slight stinging sensation for about 3 minutes and then it went away. Do you think it is work the slight discomfort for something that actually works?
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I see. Thank you guys for your input. Much appreciated
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“Use of the ceramide cream in this study resulted in a 100-percent improvement in IGA scores and a 67-percent improvement in overall subject skin self-assessment scores after four weeks of use in individuals with atopic dermatitis or other sensitive skin conditions. Improvements were statistically significant.”
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ngarayeva001 said:I have been looking for a scientific proof of skin benefits provided by topically applied ceramides for a while but all existing studies are not solid enough. I raised a topic here but several professional chemists pointed out on not so reliable methods used in those studies (vehicle with petrolatum). I would be happy to find such a proof because I really like ceramides/cholesterol blend sold by makingcosmetics. Maybe it’s placebo but I can swear I feel the difference..
@Lindsey1009, I believe makingcosmetics sell repackaged Evonik ceramides. Lotioncrafter sells chinese version (same blend with cholesterol) and it’s more affordable. I didn’t notice much difference. Looks identical (rheology, overall look).https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5955631/
From what I have read, they can really make a difference in your skin. Especially with someone suffering from a weakened moisture barrier. It would just be nice if I could find an affordable option.
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Thank you for the comments!
I know a lot of these plant powders wont do a lot efficacy-wise, so I was putting them in there for mostly marketing reasons. But I do want this to work to some degree! Peptides, HLA and vitamin C are what i am relying on for efficacy. As for the peptide, I was thinking Hexapeptide 1, but I am still deciding on that one. Peptides are pricey, so I am price comparing online. I have heard that aloe clumps a lot! So I was planning on mixing this as well as possible. Do you think the aloe will re-clump? If so, I might omit or use a very small %. I was thinking a little bit of this:
Aloe Powder
Botanical Name: Aloe ferox
Common Names: Indian Aloe, Barbados aloe, Curacao aloe
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EVchem said:There are people with a much stronger background on here that could give you more qualified advice.
but here are my initial thoughts:
- I don’t know what peptide is in peptide powder but generally I’m skeptical of peptides doing much in cosmetics
- you can choose a variety of different molecular weight hyaluronic acids. The higher the molecular weight, the more it will just sit on top of the skin and the more it will form a thick gel when mixed with water.
- if you want to tackle redness i would recommend niacinamide over mugwort powder but that’s only because i’m more familiar with niacinamide for that application.all that said, I’m not sure how any of these will perform when combined with the clays. Clays like bentonite swell and may reduce the ‘efficacy’ of some of your actives
Thanks for this! I wanted to use a high and low molecular weight HLA so that it can deliver to different levels of the skin.
Do you know if the clay will take precedence and absorb into the deepest levels- thus “blocking’ the actives to reach? I am very curious. I know certain oils and even silicone might do this to some degree. I wonder if there is a resource out there that spells this out and compares different mixed ingredients.
I also wondered this for personal use. If I am layering a retinol cream, a HLA serum, and oil/moisturizer, how can I be sure that one active isn’t occupying the pore and disallowing the others to work? Perhaps there should be a time lapse between each application? Maybe I am thinking too deeply into this..
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Perry said:1. Sure - although you should use a vitamin C powder that adheres to some reasonable standards (e.g. https://www.gcchemicals.com/docs/AscorbicAcid%20-%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf)
2. Same answer as above. Find an hyaluronic acid source that has good specifications.
3. It’s unlikely any of the active ingredients will show a consumer perceptible, lasting effect so the amount you use doesn’t matter much. No one has ever tested these ingredients combined and delivered from a powdered facial mask. So, you would expect three possible outcomes.
a. Skin is improved
b. Skin is made worse
c. Skin is unchangedThe most likely of those three occurrences is C, skin is unchanged.
Product performance is not what sells masks. The experience of using them and the marketing of them is what sells masks.
Consumers will believe whatever they want about their experience using the mask and it will have little relation as to whether it actually provided a benefit or not.
My advice would be to make a formula with as little of each ingredient as you can and compare it to a formula using the amounts you listed above. On a blinded basis, I doubt you will be able to tell a difference. I doubt even more that a consumer would.
Perry said:1. Sure - although you should use a vitamin C powder that adheres to some reasonable standards (e.g. https://www.gcchemicals.com/docs/AscorbicAcid%20-%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf)2. Same answer as above. Find an hyaluronic acid source that has good specifications.
3. It’s unlikely any of the active ingredients will show a consumer perceptible, lasting effect so the amount you use doesn’t matter much. No one has ever tested these ingredients combined and delivered from a powdered facial mask. So, you would expect three possible outcomes.
a. Skin is improved
b. Skin is made worse
c. Skin is unchangedThe most likely of those three occurrences is C, skin is unchanged.
Product performance is not what sells masks. The experience of using them and the marketing of them is what sells masks.
Consumers will believe whatever they want about their experience using the mask and it will have little relation as to whether it actually provided a benefit or not.
My advice would be to make a formula with as little of each ingredient as you can and compare it to a formula using the amounts you listed above. On a blinded basis, I doubt you will be able to tell a difference. I doubt even more that a consumer would.
Thank you so much Perry!
Your answer is sort of what I expected. I was kind of hoping that the actives might show at least a slight improvement though. I can say, from personal experience, as soon as I started using vitamin C, retinol, and HLA combined with an LED light, I saw drastic improvement in about 4 months. I even got comments from friends and family about my skin looking nicer than ever before. I had redness and uneven skin tone that was greatly improved. So I do believe these ingredients work, but with all the variables present, I am not expecting a miracle by any means! My own experience is what made me excited to start looking into skincare formulating in the first place. Hopefully the mud and dirt doesn’t get in the way of everything!
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Good feedback, thank you. What do you think of the active ingredients?
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Pharma said:Lindsey1009 said:… feel more smooth and silky? …
Trade in some of the beeswax with cetyl palmitate (silky and smoother than pure wax) or myristyl myristate (softer and shinier). Like 1-2% plus 0.5% wax instead of 2% wax. 2% beeswax are probably giving a “gritty/rough” and waxy feel and a somewhat “chippy/scaly” look (dunno how to describe it). Or change to a smoother, lower melting wax such as candelilla or any of the berry waxes.
Okay I will try cetyl palmitate! Thank you so much.
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ngarayeva001 said:I usually see lakes and oxides as colorants. They are stable throughout life of the product.
yes, mix solubilizer with EO (2:1 should be ok) and add to cool down phase.
Great, I will try it! Thanks again for you expert opinion. I appreciate it so much.
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NatraGem S140 NP is a natural solubalizer. Would I simply mix that with the EO’s and add during last phase?
I was thinking of adding some mica in a rich green color to overpower the changes in color that might occur. I wasn’t sure If that makes sense though, just something I came up with.
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ngarayeva001 said:0.5% of xanthan for this formula might be a bit too much, I would reduce to 0.2%.
I don’t see a reason to add 1% of vitamin e. It’s an antioxidant for your product (not for skin benefits) and you don’t need much. Please confirm it’s tocopherol not tocopheryl acetate.
3% of glycerin and 3% of 1,3 propanediol might be ok, but it’s a matter of your taste. You should make it and decide whether you like it or not. I would say it’s a bit too much, but depends on the skin. It will be a little bit sticky but some people actually like it. By the way, mix allantoin in propanediol and add it in the end. It’s heat sensitive.
Reduce panthenol to 0.5%.Other than that your formula is good to go for the first lab run. All further changes will depend on your results.
Yes definitely tocopheryl! One more QU, will my small amount of frankincense essential oil be okay to add in cool down phase? I know they are oil, but they are also heat sensitive. This is how it looks…
Cool
down·
2 grams Argireline NP·
.5 grams Coq10 powder·
.5 frankincense essential oil·
.5 g spirulina extractFinal phase:
· MIXED .5 g allantoin (NO more than .5%) & 2% 1,3 propanediol (heat
sensitive) -
Awesome! Thank you so so much!
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ngarayeva001 said:Yes they have quite a few ingredients, but mostly a fluff. Always look at functional ingredients.
I could have many suggestions how to make it more silky, but I don’t know what would be acceptable for you. I am not sure which natural standard you are sticking to. Looking at that peptide moisturiser, I would say Sepinov EMT 10 is a great idea but it’s derived of acrylic acid if that’s ok for you.. You can buy it on lotioncrafter in the US.
I also think you need a humectant. Either glycerin or 1,3 propanediol.
Yes! I actually revised more formula a bit more last night to include a few more things:
Eye cream recipe
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.5 frankincense essential oil·
10 grams ounce pure aloe vera gel·
60 g distilled water·
10 grams unrefined mango butter·
15 grams (total) rice bran oil & grapeseed & rosehip·
1 grams vitamin E (or .5 max?)·
2 grams beeswax·
5% Olivem1000 (will convert to %)·
.5% xanthan gum (“)·
2 grams Argireline NP·
.5 grams Coq10 powder·
Vegetable Glycerin 3%·
1 g panthenol·
3% 1,3 propanedial·
1 g rice protein·
.5 allantoin·
Recommended Optifen (max
amt, + add other preservative) -
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ngarayeva001 said:Olivem and beeswax should be ok. The only concern I have is that your oil phase is a bit high, so you need to make it and see whether it’s stable or not. I don’t have much experience with Olivem because it’s too draggy for my taste.
Have a look how it was used in The Drunk Elephant’s product:https://incidecoder.com/products/drunk-elephant-protini-tm-polypeptide-cream
They used cetearyl alcohol as a thickener (pretty standard), carbomer, xanthan and Sepinov EMT 10 as stabilisers.Regarding serum bottle, it might not work, but you need to run the formula and see. I predict it’s going to be too viscous.
Yeah I think you are right. I will have to play around with the oil/water %’s until I find what I like. That product you sent me seems pretty good! There are quite a few ingredients in there.
Do you have any easy additive ideas to make a product feel more smooth and silky? I am thinking this could be a nice addition. I may also add a little bit of green mica powder to get my desired color if I decide to use spirulina extract instead of powder.
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I was planning on tweaking the oil types just a bit, but I just want to make sure the amounts of each ingredient type will work. I also plan to use a few different essential oils (but keep the .5% total!). I guess this is just a blueprint type recipe for me
In terms of the emulsifier, do you think the olivem100 and little bit of beeswax will be okay? I’d prefer to use these because I already ordered a lot of it. I do want this on the greasier side, just not overboard. Does the vitamin E tend to feel more greasy as compared to regular carrier oils such as avocado and coconut oil? Also, I prefer to put this cream in a serum/pump type bottle for sanitary reasons. Do you think the consistency will come out correctly for this packaging type?
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That’s funny, I was thinking I should maybe throw some glycerin in there too! I will add that in and reduce vitamin E. Why is too much vitamin E detrimental? Just curious. Cost?
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ngarayeva001 said:The problem is, beeswax isn’t an emulsifier. You need a proper emulsifier for this product. Can you please put this in % because drops and grams are very hard to read. Your water phase is around 30% while oil phase is around 60. What kind of texture are you expecting to get? My point is, it will be very very greasy unless it’s what you want.
That’s a good point! Thank you for pointing that out. I re-formulated my recipe, added a few ingredients, and took out some of the oils and replaced with distilled water. What do you think of this?
Eye cream recipe
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1-gram drops frankincense essential oil·
28 grams ounce pure aloe vera gel·
10 g distilled water·
28 grams unrefined shea butter·
18 grams unrefined coconut oil·
5 grams vitamin E·
2 grams beeswax·
5% Olivem1000 (will convert to %)·
.5% xanthan gum (“)·
2 grams Argireline NP·
.5 grams Coq10 powder·
Recommended Optifen -
ngarayeva001 said:And your emulsifier is?
I also edited my original post to include a tiny bit of spirulina. Hopefully that works in this, as it is such a small amount.
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ngarayeva001 said:And your emulsifier is?
beeswax. But if I need a co-emulsifier I am completely open to that too
