letsalcido
Forum Replies Created
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@Chippy yes making cosmetics is good, also:
essentialwholesale.com
makingyourown.buzz
saveoncitric.com
wholesalesupplies.com
formulatorsampleshop.com
nobleroots.com
lotioncrafter.comThey’re good small quantity sources for DIY or small businesses.
I’ve bought from all of them. Last resource is Ebay, Amazon or Alibaba (probably larger quantities).
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@Amira my two scents: I believe similar to sodium bicarbonate, the alkaline pH of Zinc Oxide is part of what makes a hostile environment and kills bacteria that cause bad odor in the underarms. I’m not certain that you actually would want to lower the pH to a skin friendly pH. You may be letting go of some efficacy in doing so.
If you are too worried about irritation, could try Saccharomyces Ferment Filtrate which has a slightly acidic pH. I’m using a deodorant with it and it works on me just as well as the sodium bicarbonate ones that I love, and definitely less irritation.
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@dmh0023 it seems like the materials weren’t mixed properly before, so you had areas with a lower melting point than others. Now you have a properly homogenous mixture, perhaps?
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@Pharma yes what you say aligns with most of the manufacturer’s notes I’ve seen. But I had come across at least one that claimed only decanol as the starting point https://www.ulprospector.com/en/na/PersonalCare/Detail/5303/601422/Endinol-MILD-DG-1050?st=1&sl=92034918&crit=RGVjeWwgR2x1Y29zaWRl&ss=2
So it seems your mileage may vary, but given that OP likely does not need analytical grade high purity surfactants, the two I mentioned fit the bill keeping in mind there will be other chain lengths in there. Good to point out they’re not pure as I implied though.Regarding your other observations about the fatty acids/fatty alcohols. While I was gonna comment something similar, don’t most cosmetic surfactants begin as fatty acids from Coconut/Palm and other vegetable sources nowadays? You even mentioned most surfactants come from fatty alcohols made from fatty acids. I think OP is not a chemist and they just tried to express something the way they could, and I don’t think it was inadequate. Only weird thing is trying to avoid those chain lengths… curious to hear the reasoning behind it.
Good detailed explanation nonetheless! -
Two examples:
Decyl Glucoside (C10)*
Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside (C8-C10)* double check with the manufacturer because I found at least two sellers claiming their product has C8-C16 and another C8-C10. But strictly from the name it should be C10 only.
Is there a specific reason why you would like to avoid those chain lengths?
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@esthetician922 it really depends what you want your toner to do. For the most part they don’t do much, some provide super mild moisturization, astringency/matting effect, cleansing, nice smells, etc.
Given the Witch Hazel and Alcohol being up there in the list (if you provided it in order as it appears in the label) this is probably targeted at oily/blemished skin?
What I think:
Hamamelis Virginiana (Witch Hazel) - (30-50% based on where it is in the LOI)
Water, Aqua (Water), (q.s)
Alcohol, (10-30% ?, this is used as an astringent/for oil removal)
Glycerin, (0-3%)
Polysorbate 20, (q.s to solubilize the oils, probably 1-3% or about 5x the oils)
Sodium PCA, (never used it, but maybe 0.5%?)
—— Everything below 0.1 to 1% each maybe.
Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Fruit Extract,
Fructooligosaccharides (D-beta),
Glucosamine HCI (D),
Honey,
Phospholipids,
Commiphora Myrrha Oil,
Sphingolipids,
Hyaluronic Acid,
BoragoOfficinalis Seed Oil*,
Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Oil,
Benzyl Alcohol,
If you’re actually trying to copy this formulation you’ll have to do your own experiments to determine the right percentages.
Although I’m not super sure my estimates here are close. I would expect Benzyl Alcohol to be there at like 0.5% but if 0.5% HA would make the toner fairly thick I think. Maybe they’re using SLMW HA.
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@Abdullah but you had mentioned your primary surfactant was SLES.
I don’t know if you can thicken CAPB and Lauryl Glucoside with DEA, you’ll want an anionic in there or use polymers.
What is your EXACT formulation?
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Rather than separating, it’s possible that it’s just melting. The stearic acid batch probably has a lower melting than the 10% emulsifying wax (you added around 4% more higher melting point waxy product vs 2% in your stearic acid). Try upping the stearic acid to 3-5%, or add some Myristic Acid for some extra cleansing and foaming and to increase the melting point further.
Pour some of the liquid in a small container and put it in the fridge for a minute to confirm it is melted and not separated.
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@promises speaking of the ordinary. They have an anhydrous formula https://theordinary.deciem.com/product/rdn-vitamin-c-suspension-30pct-in-silicone-30ml why don’t you try to replicate that instead? You’ll see they’ll use a polymer to suspend the Vit C. They do mention the gritty feeling.
Alternatively you can buy a liposoluble form of Vit C, like Ascorbyl Palmitate. -
Sodium percarbonate, and sodium bicarbonate
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@bahey ah my bad, I didn’t see the other 10% was ethanol.
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Obviously whatever you are using to color this product is not compatible with alcohol. What is the exact ingredient? Also, you can get rid of it, sanitizers don’t need color.
Lastly, your sanitizer is not 70% alcohol, it’s 63%. You need 77.8% v/v of 90% v/v IPA in your formula for a final concentration of 70%. -
Coco glucoside is a mixture of all the others you listed. This mixture tends to help with thickening.
Decyl (C10) glucoside has a thinning effect . Good solubilizer. It’s a hydrotrope I believe.
Caprylyl/Capryl (C8, C10) Glucoside. I don’t know that there is much difference with this one and Decyl.
Lauryl Glucoside (C12) never tried it.
I believe all the glucosides have good foaming. I have tried decyl, caprylyl/capryl and coco. Possibly coco glucoside is the most foaming and most stable, but I’ve not dug deep into this nor experimented. You’ll probably have better luck testing things in your own formulation.
From repackers, the cost is basically the same. Not sure from manufacturers. -
@AVisotsky trial and error: stability testing and skin feel. Also looking at what other people are doing can give you a good idea (for example, Xanthan Gum 0.1-0.5% normally used in lotions and creams).
It all really depends on your product, the characteristics you want it to have and how stable it is from your own testing.
Maybe someone else here has more precise guidance.
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@AVisotsky I’m not super experienced in cosmetic ingredients. But any water gelling agent would help: carbomers, acrylic based polymers/copolymers, natural gums, modified celluloses.
It will all really depend on the texture you want to achieve. Are you looking for more of a water gel cream feel? Go with acrylic polymers and copolymers. If you want something with a bit more “flow” like a lotion packed in a pump bottle, then gums or modified celluloses. Or combine a couple different things to achieve the rheology you’d like.
In terms of stability, you just want the water phase to “move less”, the rest is just how you want it to feel.
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@AVisotsky when you introduce phase B into phase A does it immediately turn into a white liquid or do you need to stir/shear?
The reason I ask is, if it doesn’t automatically turn white, you don’t have enough (or the right) emulsifier/surfactant to break the surface tension between the oil phase and the water phase, so you require plenty of shear to keep the two combined until the “waxes” start to solidify. And then it’s only pseudo-stable, an increase in temperature breaks it easily given that you don’t have any rheology modifiers (Xanthan Gum is great for this) to prevent micelles from moving and coalescing.
At any rate, to reduce impact of temperature on the texture of your lotion/cream, you should always have a water phase thickener in there. Even if your emulsion is stable. Otherwise you’ll pump out lotion when cooler, and ”milk” when it’s warmer. It will also reduce the amount of emulsifier you will need.I experimented with a lotion with no water thickeners, and it was stable. I was able to even melt it back to liquid and it remained stable. But obviously the viscosity fluctuation was less than desirable. -
@Oladoo there is a lot of context you are not providing.
- is this cosmetic grade coconut milk (if it even exists)?
- or is this for an ingestible/food?
- coconut milk/cream is already an emulsion like klangridge mentioned, what else are you adding to your product?
- coconut milk has a lot of sugars, not a good idea to put in a cosmetic. It’s broth for bacterial growth and preserving will be hard.
- to form stable emulsions you need an emulsifier (in cosmetics and any other industry). There is a myriad of emulsifiers and the effect you want to achieve and other ingredients in your formulation will dictate which one to use.
- again, what kind of product are you trying to make? -
Without digging too much into this, the reaction with NaOH and Glycolic Acid is irreversible. You’re lowering the pH by turning Glycolic Acid into Sodium Glycolate, irreversibly. Whether this affects efficacy or not I have no idea. My understanding is that free acids are more effective for exfoliation and have better skin penetration (due to less charge), but somebody mentioned here that there were findings that, at least with Salicylic Acid, the Sodium salt was just as effective even above the traditionally recommended 3.5pH.
With L-Arginine, you have a zwitterionic compound that will get protonated or deprotonated at different pH and the reaction is reversible.
Maybe someone has more specific knowledge as to the benefits of using one or the other in cosmetics.
Another thing to consider is the interaction of electrolytes in your formula. In case you’re using a polymer or emulsifier.
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@Cafe33 a lot of commercial brands use D-limonene in antibacterial wipes, so I’m sure it at least doesn’t interfere with QACs at the percentages they use.
Decyl glucoside should work great, and would help solubilize your EOs too. I don’t have enough experience to say what ratio of CAPB to use with Decyl Glucoside, but you can always just experiment and see.
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@Belassi I didn’t know that about d-limonene, but this is great to know. I wanted to somehow incorporate orange essential oil into my antibacterial surface cleaner. The EO I have said it was 90% limonene, so who knew I would kill two birds with one stone.
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@Cafe33 it’s not just the carbopol that’s the issue. The positive charge on benzalkonium chloride and cetrimonium chloride will interact with the negative charge on SLES and will probably render the cationics useless.
Cationic surfactants rely on electrostatic forces to work, it increases their affinity for cell membranes (and hair/surfaces), when you neutralize that force you lose the benefits. That’s why you should use amphoterics or non-ionics with cationics.
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Just realized I actually meant glycols not polyols (is one not a subset of the other?).
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PH ~5.5-6 in general, pH 3.5 if using BHA or AHAs.
Other actives, preservatives and certain polymers may have other requirements that you’ll need to consider to figure out a combination of compatible ingredients.
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@JamesLD You probably want around 30% polyol content. So probably you would need to add 20% PG at least to your current formulation. If you opt to go with it, you could also just get rid of its isomer 1,3-propanediol and just try out 30% PG.
I was in fact formulating a salicylic acid toner as well, and 20% PG did not work on its own, but didn’t try > 25% as suggested. Didn’t spend any more time on it and used alcohol.
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@Belassi good luck with your move!
@MarkBroussard thanks for the tip! Do you happen to know of any documentation/papers on the effectiveness at different concentrations?