[Lady_B]

Thanks @Belassi! I’m trying to follow the “20 minute heat” rule to be safe, and the formulation guidance on few formulas suggested to stir Ultrez 10 in a room temperature water and then heat to 75C. Looks like it wets better in lower temperature. Checked their datasheet again and apparently they don’t recommend heating over 70C only when it is  mixed with oils: “As in the case
of other carbomer polymers, the polymer/oil slurry
should not be heated above 70°C or the polymer may
become plasticized.”

I use distilled water and turn on UV lamp for 30 mins before I start, but assumed better be safe anyway.

It does indeed catch air very easily, even when I mix just with the spatula! My serum finally turned out fine and I like its skin feel, I guess I’m going to be experimenting more.

[Lady_B]

ngarayeva001 said:

The majority of acrylic acid derived polymers don’t tolerate electrolytes. Some, like Zen, do better than others but they all lose viscosity. Sodium Lactate at 2% would turn Zen into liquid asl well. Stick to glycols for humectants. Sodium Lactate, Sodium PCA, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, NaCl, Zinc PCA is not a full list of ingredients that cause loss of viscosity.

Thank you!

[Lady_B]

Yay! Thank you

[Lady_B]

I think they just paint different parts of the picture and we need to take all of them into account. However, as Perry mentioned, if someone doesn’t have an issue with SLS, why bother looking elsewhere? If the surfactant is “too effective” wouldn’t it be easier and more economical just to water it down?
I use Perry’s shampoo (it is my “gold standard” whenever I play with my own shampoos), and skin irritation is minimal, although it uses SLS and is pretty concentrated (I always forget to use less than other shampoos and end up with a ton of foam). 

[Lady_B]

And this is directly from the manufacturer:

[Lady_B]

Well, there are some studies available too that link SLS with more irritation. I thought it was you who mentioned on Beauty Brains that SLS has a smaller molecule size and might more readily penetrate and therefore stay deposed in hair follicles, no?

Here is a good comparison table: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691506003140: 

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate	192.90
Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate	176.82
Sodium Laureth Sulfate	41.02
Sodium Lauroamphoacetate	20.93
Sodium Myreth Sulfate	17.76
Sodium Cocoamphoacetate	13.46
Cocamidopropyl Betaine	10.89
Coco Glucoside	5.12
Disodium Cocoyl Glutamate	4.88
Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate	4.67
Decyl Glucoside	4.65
Lauryl Glucoside	4.42
Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate	4.42
Water	3.22
Laurdimonium Hydroxypropyl Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein	2.99
Sodium Cocoyl Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein	2.62
Sodium Cocoyl Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein Glutamate	2.33
Laureth-7 Citrate	1.63

[Lady_B]

OrganicPap said:

Thank you for getting back to me! Yes I am selling it everywhere and the product sits in Amazon warehouse? Once the product hardens/freezes I can get it to liquid form again. I tried running it under hot water. What else do you suggest? I can’t expect the customers to do an intense thawing process. Is this normal for pomegranate oil to freeze like this? 

So there might be two different issue:
1. Pomegranate oil freezes and customers freak out because they didn’t realize an oil can freeze. You can just politely remind them that “baby, it’s cold outside” and frozen oil doesn’t lose any of its properties. They should keep it at room temperature (60-80F) for a few hours to get it back to the fluid form.

2. After the pomegranate oil is frozen, it never returns back to its fluid state and stays creamy. This is a trickier problem to solve and I have no idea what would cause it, as I haven’t heard of this before.

[Lady_B]

It is their face oil, where marketing page says:

KEY INGREDIENTS

[Lady_B]

Are you selling to the Northern states? If packages are left in front of the door, they most likely freeze. You can do a freeze/thaw test to see how the oil behaves in these conditions.

[Lady_B]

I was under the impression that fatty acids do matter for the healthy sebum composition. Luxury brands just add palmitic acid and linoleic acid directly in their creams, omitting vegetable oils as their source. I am not there yet to be able to purchase directly from Sigma-Aldrich, unfortunately
However, my question was more in the context of the facial or body oils where (I assumed) customers look for vegetable oils on the label in the first place. After your comment, I went to check out what does Shiseido offer. Apparently, they do use the mentioned ester as one of the top ingredients along with the mineral oil, just like you said:

INGREDIENTS: DIMETHICONE, CAPRYLIC/CAPRIC TRIGLYCERIDE, ETHYLHEXYL PALMITATE, PEG/POLY(1,2-BUTANEDIOL)-52/32 DIMETHYL ETHER, ISOPROPYL MYRISTATE, MINERAL OIL(PARAFFINUM LIQUIDUM/HUILE MINERALE), DIETHYLHEXYL SUCCINATE, ETHYLHEXYL METHOXYCINNAMATE, DIPHENYLSILOXY PHENYL TRIMETHICONE, PEG-20 HYDROGENATED CASTOR OIL, FRAGRANCE (PARFUM), WATER(AQUA/EAU), ISOSTEARIC ACID, BIS-ETHYLHEXYLOXYPHENOL METHOXYPHENYL TRIAZINE, DIPROPYLENE GLYCOL, LINALOOL, LIMONENE, BUTYLPHENYL METHYLPROPIONAL, BHT, TOCOPHEROL, ALPHA-ISOMETHYL IONONE, CITRONELLOL, GERANIOL, BENZYL BENZOATE, ARGANIA SPINOSA KERNEL OIL, CARTHAMUS TINCTORIUS (SAFFLOWER) SEED OIL, OENOTHERA BIENNIS (EVENING PRIMROSE) OIL, MACADAMIA TERNIFOLIA SEED OIL, SIMMONDSIA CHINENSIS (JOJOBA) SEED OIL, SODIUM ACETYLATED HYALURONATE, ALCOHOL, RED 17 (CI 26100), SACCHAROMYCES FERMENT LYSATE FILTRATE, BETA-CAROTENE (CI 75130), PIPERIDINEPROPIONIC ACID, CAMELLIA SINENSIS LEAF EXTRACT, PHENOXYETHANOL

[Lady_B]

Thank you! I haven’t seen any claims regarding volatility, just the spreadability and film-forming properties. I agree stability against oxidation is a huge benefit too. However, these are my issues from a formulator’s perspective. In order to justify an ingredient (that often looks unfamiliar) to the end user from their perspective, I was hoping there is anything else that stands out and can explain why do we use this ingredient. I have seen it in the suggested formulations for a body oil being added up to 60%!

[Lady_B]

@ngarayeva001 if you read in Russian here is more information: http://vitazone.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=2413

Based on what I have read so far in order for surfactant to form stable micelles in o/w emulsions it needs at least 15% of oil phase content. Therefore if you don’t want to use natural oils for whatever reason, you need to substitute with tryglycerides and squalane.

[Lady_B]

@Doreen they explained the mechanism of polyunsaturated oils oxidization pretty accurately. The article is long, I didn’t evaluate every statement in it. I was hoping it provided enough context for dtdang to continue his exploration on the subject on his own.

[Lady_B]

ngarayeva001 said:

Well, not science just my experience: grape seed oil and rosehip oil both mostly polyunsaturated with high iodine value. Both go rancid in months and reduce stability of the emulsion. Not personal experience but an observation: most of commercial products are made of: squalane, jojoba oil, shea butter. Other oils added as claim ingredient at less that 1%.

Yep, and tryglycerides to ensure there is enough fatty content for surfactants to work. 

[Lady_B]

@Dtdang I didn’t validate the quality of the article, tbh. Just searched for a quick reference to give you more details. I did learn about oxodization of polyunsaturated oils from cosmetic chemists working with at large manufacturers and then struggled myself to find more details about it, until I found a German book translation online with in deph details and methods to calculate the balance between oleic and linoleic acids in oils used in your formulation.

[Lady_B]

@Dtdang here is a detailed article for instance: https://www.alifeadjacent.com/skin-aging-causes/

[Lady_B]

Thanks everyone! I am just amused companies like this aren’t reported to FDA, let alone sell thousands of products on Amazon. I wonder if their “Made in USA” statement is also a lie…

[Lady_B]

@Belassi do you refer to the non proper INCI naming of the ingredients or overall unrealistic percentages and combination of ingredients?

[Lady_B]

I am questioning sunflower oil. You really don’t want to use polyunsaturated oils in a lotion for a day wear that might oxidize and damage lipids in the skin.

[Lady_B]

I noticed that some ingredients on makingcosmetics are marked as made in china. Does anyone know if MC is doing their own quality assessment prior to re-packaging or is the customer on its own if the product is not pure enough?

[Lady_B]

Pubmed is usually a great resource. Here is an example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921764/