Joy
Forum Replies Created
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Oh, and just to add, I’ve made balms with only a little BTMS-25 without any separation. I don’t remember the exact percentage off-hand, but probably around 5%, in combination with other non-emulsifying waxes.
Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or ideas before I continue various trial formulas for this.
Thanks!
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Here is a screenshot of how it looks after clicking new discussion
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Hi,
I am not able to post a new discussion. I see the button, but when I click it my screen gets a white “film” that stays that way unless I refresh the page. For reference, I am using an iPhone.
Also, in the notifications, it would be great if it said what thread the reply was made. Right now it just says there is a new comment on “a discussion”.
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I find it easier to navigate on my phone, as before I had to switch to desktop view to be able to search for things, and it wasn’t ideal. But with the new version, the messages in my inbox disappeared. Also, it is a little harder to tell replies in a thread because there is no separation with the previous comment. I preferred the old version where each comment/reply was in chronological order and one under the other. Another point is that when replying, I can only see what I am writing, I can’t see what anyone else says. I’m also finding it a little glitchy to type. It seems to freeze temporarily, then my writing appears as if typed quickly. I’m not having this issue on any other website.
Btw, is there any way to delete threads or posts we’ve made?
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My INCI said the same as @Paprik said, but in the SDS it mentions less than 1% (each) of sodium benzoate and gluconolactone.
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I wouldn’t market a scented product as fragrance free, because some customers may think there is no scent. But you can say synthetic fragrance free, or naturally scented with floral water. The marketing appeal of floral waters is mostly in how you describe the scent and the “naturalness” in my opinion. Like “this lotion is naturally scented with neroli floral water. Each application is like being transported to an orange orchard in bloom. Blah blah blah”. Lol.
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I don’t think that the demand for vegan products is truly that high. Vegans are only about 2% of the population. If you look at major brands like MAC, Estee Lauder, etc., who are huge, their products aren’t all vegan and yet sell very well. I think there is more of a demand for cruelty free than vegan. I often hear people say they refuse to purchase if not cruelty free, but I never hear that about vegan unless the person is vegan themselves. Also, beeswax is vegetarian and you can point out that using beeswax instead of a synthetic alternative can be better for the environment, which would of course affect the animals they want to protect. And raising bees helps keep the population up, which is necessary if we want to continue growing food!
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PhilGeis said:
All ingredient are naturally derived.Exactly. But for certified organic/cosmos/other “natural” certifications, they generally consider naturally derived to be those “more directly derived” I guess. Since obviously everything comes from something from the Earth (and even if from outerspace it would still be “natural” I guess, lol). But clean never meant fully natural anyways. I’m curious to see the result of this. But a lot of big companies simply settle, which while understandable, is a little frustrating because 1) it encourages more people to sue for a settlement and 2) we never see how a judge would actually judge the case.
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@Graillotion it seems like you’re in most of the threads I’ve been reading! I promise I’m not stalking you, haha.
I love using floral waters for scents, but not all smell good. Rose and neroli smell true to the flowers in my experience, but lavender and jasmine smelled awful. For percentages, I’ve found that it depends on the other ingredients as well. I used 5% neroli hydrosol in a basic HA serum and it gave a lovely light scent that you smell when applying and then disappears. I then tried 5% in a hair gel, and you can barely smell the neroli. For lotions, I used 25% and it gave it a nice light scent. Noticeable, but not overpowering and doesn’t really linger, which is what I personally like. But 25% in that HA serum would have likely been too much since 5% worked well in that case. -
@MarinaReneia I didn’t say “true clean”, I said “true” clean companies (by true I mean actual companies, not just a hobbist). Meaning the true applies to company, not to clean. As in an actual company that is clean, not a company that is truly clean, which aren’t the same thing. Even in the comment your are replying to I said clean uses synthetics.
As for my definition of clean, it is a mix of natural and synthetic ingredients, where certain ones aren’t used. It is somewhere between conventional and natural, and that somewhere depends on basically each company. You can see in my comments that I use phenoxyethanol, so not sure why you assumed I only make “raw” products of oils and vinegars without preservatives, lol. I was literally asking about preservatives.
The list of preservatives you gave would fit into a clean ingredients list, I never said otherwise. I said that I think many of them aren’t great at preserving, at least not on their own. I definitely won’t be using Leucidal, as it is basically useless, but thanks!
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Having no tint on the lips is as simple as using less pigment. You can have enough to colour the balm (very little is needed), but not tint the lips.
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I definitely agree that a better preservative is needed, and that would be the first thing to change.
As for “stretching” the base, while diluting with water will increase the overall lotion quantity, you’ll also need to increase the preservative accordingly, make sure the lotion stays emulsified, performs well, and you’ll have a thinner lotion. Since you liked the original, you may not like this new version. If you want to keep it thicker, then you would have to re-add less expensive oils/waxes/gums/etc., but then you’d be reformulating the lotion anyways, but just badly since it wouldn’t have been made with the proper steps from the start, so at that point why not start over and formulate it yourself? -
No-no lists aren’t generally an issue for me, but I personally would not feel comfortable providing something that doesn’t work well, or is unsafe, so if you don’t think it is possible to make something at least decent with what they want, I’d recommend refusing it. You wouldn’t want them to “recommend” you to others based on an awful product.
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If we ignore Sephora’s own definition of clean, and take her’s of natural (and since when is clean = 100% natural? It was made to be a different term since most clean products are only partially natural) aren’t most of the ingredients from the screenshots posted here generally accepted as natural/naturally derived? They are accepted in organic cosmetics, cosmos, etc. Since when is xanthan gum or cetyl alcohol not considered natural for cosmetics by the general public and certification organizations?
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@MarinaReneia yes, like you said, clean is used for marketing, but I don’t see any “true” clean companies (by true I mean actual companies, not just a hobbist) claiming that clean = no chemicals. Because clean was used to be different from fully natural, which has more of a tendency to claim no chemicals. But clean companies still use synthetics. (And yes, I know everything is a chemical, but you only see the no chemical claims when it comes to natural ingredients).
For the preservatives you listed, I think many of them aren’t really effective, at least not on their own.
Thank you everyone for your comments. I will probably continue using phenoxyethanol, or try a combination that @MarkBroussard recommended and test it for efficacy for a while before switching, if I go that route. Part of me wonders if it will simply give customers more “weird names” to worry about since there would be a lot more preservative ingredients, or they may think that phenethyl alcohol is the same thing as phenoxyethanol since they sound similar. So not sure how much it is worth it anyways for something that is only at 0.53%. -
@MarkBroussard your previous comment with the combinations mentioned didn’t show up for me when I responded. Thank you for sharing those!
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@PhilGeis thanks for sharing your knowledge. Honestly, I didn’t have much faith in those options, but hoped I was wrong! Haha
@MarkBroussard Yea, I will likely continue using it. I’m always interested in other options though if they work well.
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@MarkBroussard I see that you formulate for natural/clean beauty. Have you experienced push back with phenoxyethanol? And if you are open to sharing, do you use an alternative?
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@MarkBroussard I think I am leaning towards keeping the phenoxyethanol, but I was hoping maybe there was something that worked great that I had overlooked.
Regarding phenoxyethanol, I don’t have any direct pressure currently as the product is not sold yet, but it is for a clean brand and whenever a customer searches for phenoxyethanol online, a ton of articles claiming a bunch of side effects show up. I’ve seen a lot of customers mention they wish to avoid it. But since they also want to avoid all other proven preservatives, it makes it difficult! It’s such a small amount used as well. -
Many big brand cleansing balms don’t have any water. And many who do have it quite low on the ingredients list. When I make a “normal” emulsion with the BTMS25 (or 50), it is stable, but I find that it doesn’t remove makeup as well as one with much more oil content. I guess I will continue formulating and testing as I go!
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It separates without adding any water. The addition of the floral water was just something I was trying out, but just oil + emulsifier separates. Cleansing balms are usually made with an oil-in-water emulsifier because it is easier to mix it with water in the face to wash off. Commercial cleansing balms seem to often have separation issues as well. My theory was because maybe the emulsifier needs that large water phase to be stable, but I was hoping for more information.
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Thanks
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For the version without any water, which is what I am focusing on first, I just heated the oils and emulsifier together, poured, and cooled. I tried different cooling methods (leaving on counter to cool on it’s own, putting in freezer, a mix of both). They still separate.
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I was still definitely planning on having it tested including while being used before selling, but just want to get the separation issue resolved, with or without the floral water.
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Thank you, hopefully it will be resolved soon! I was hoping to ask a question to the group, haha
