Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating General Change my view Does anyone refuse to work with no no lists?

Tagged: 

  • Does anyone refuse to work with no no lists?

    Posted by Rockstargirl on December 14, 2022 at 12:43 am

    As a manufacturer or formulator - do you stick to your own style or ethos? Or will you formulate things you don’t think are good? I’m having trouble accepting so much nonsense and don’t want rotten horrible products attached to me. Some clients give me nothing but dried unpreserved leaves to formulate with! (Not really but close)

    PhilGeis replied 1 year, 1 month ago 7 Members · 9 Replies
  • 9 Replies
  • PhilGeis

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 2:07 pm

    Think most of the big guys formulate with “no-no” preservatives tho they may have a few labored products that comply with “clean” concepts

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 2:29 pm

    @Rockstargirl

    If you’re being hired as an indedpendent product developer, your job is to deliver the product the customer is requesting.  If you have ideas that would make the product better, then offer those up to the client.  However, at the end of the day, it’s the customer’s final decision as to what is/is not included in the product. 

    I formulate with No lists day-in, day-out and have never found that to be an impediment to formulating good products since most items on the No list are not ingredients I would use anyhow.  If you can tell up front that the client is looking to develop a product that is not something you want to be associated with, just turn down the business.

    I always cover myself contractually and in documentation that if I recommend against adding or not adding ingredients that I suspect/know will cause the product to fail either stability of PCT, that if the client insists against my recommendation, and the product does fail, that it is the client’s responsibility.  If you send samples out to a third-party lab for PCT, always have the client pay the third-party lab directly, particularly if the client is insisting on an approach to preservation that you don’t believe is appropriate.  Generally, once they have to pay for a second PCT test they’ll start listening to you.   

  • Rockstargirl

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 2:48 pm

    @Rockstargirl

    If you’re being hired as an indedpendent product developer, your job is to deliver the product the customer is requesting.  If you have ideas that would make the product better, then offer those up to the client.  However, at the end of the day, it’s the customer’s final decision as to what is/is not included in the product. 

    I formulate with No lists day-in, day-out and have never found that to be an impediment to formulating good products since most items on the No list are not ingredients I would use anyhow.  If you can tell up front that the client is looking to develop a product that is not something you want to be associated with, just turn down the business.

    I always cover myself contractually and in documentation that if I recommend against adding or not adding ingredients that I suspect/know will cause the product to fail either stability of PCT, that if the client insists against my recommendation, and the product does fail, that it is the client’s responsibility.  If you send samples out to a third-party lab for PCT, always have the client pay the third-party lab directly, particularly if the client is insisting on an approach to preservation that you don’t believe is appropriate.  Generally, once they have to pay for a second PCT test they’ll start listening to you.   

    You are really great. Thank you for that answer. 

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 3:14 pm

    One need only look at FDA enforcement records to understand the impact of no-no on micro quality - and cryptically experienced by consumers.

  • mikethair

    Member
    December 15, 2022 at 7:30 am

    As a manufacturer or formulator - do you stick to your own style or ethos?

    Yes, absolutely. I enjoy what I do, and prefer not to engage with formulations I’m not comfortable with.

  • Joy

    Member
    December 16, 2022 at 5:45 am

    No-no lists aren’t generally an issue for me, but I personally would not feel comfortable providing something that doesn’t work well, or is unsafe, so if you don’t think it is possible to make something at least decent with what they want, I’d recommend refusing it. You wouldn’t want them to “recommend” you to others based on an awful product.

  • Bfd

    Member
    February 17, 2023 at 8:02 pm

    No no, I don’t. Haha customer is king, even if misguided. The decision to use parabens or not use parabens doesnt say much about my style. I also wouldnt say I am putting out or am comfortable putting out rotten formulas. Even with the strictest standards, there are great solutions available. Yes, I mourn the unnecessary loss of silicones but have you tried esters? If I don’t know a solution yet, I make sure they understand the difficulty of the ask up-front. To me, our job is all about finding answers to these seemingly impossibly demands. Therein lies the fun. I’m not trying to sell the same lotion, cream, serum, gel, conditioner, etc. over and over again. Sounds boring.

    -bfd

  • KMRCSMiami

    Member
    February 22, 2023 at 3:07 pm

    As a formulator these no-no lists are becoming kinda ridiculous however I understand that I formulate for others- not myself. My opinion is that brands are sacrificing safety, cost and stability due to fear or just simply nonsense. Depending on what their goals are, and the formula restrictions, I may or may not accept the proposal. Any proposal where the no-no list hinders on safety or stability- are an automatic no. Its just not worth the headache. The same applies to feasibility. If they want a MAC performance like lipstick, but zero chemicals and made of herbs- automatic no. Its just not realistic, and if its possible its expensive. But regardless of their no-no list, I will do my best to bring their idea to life, so long as its realistic and safe.

    Most recent no-no lists have included:

    - Ingredient number restriction (i.e. less than 5 or 6 with 4 marketing ingredients)

    - Whole Foods lists approved preservatives only 🙃

    - All natural, no chemicals. Anything that sounds remotely like a chemical- no.

    - Color cosmetic made completely out of plants, but performs like MAC.

    Ironically, my no-no lists only come from US clients. I formulate for clients in Canada, Australia and in the EU, and they are so much more reasonable with product restrictions. Allow traditional preservatives and chelating agents.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  KMRCSMiami.
  • PhilGeis

    Member
    March 2, 2023 at 8:56 am

    The no-no lists are marketers’ and retailers’ - telling consumers what they should want - not a compelling % of `consumers.

Log in to reply.