[helenhelen]

PeaceLoveNaturals said:

@Graillotion And would $300 be affordable for a homogenizer?

I would say that is very affordable. But unfortunately you’d still be stuck with the 300ml minimum volume you should use the homogeniser with. That’s the reason I didn’t go for the Dynamix + homogeniser attachment in the end. Otherwise it looked great.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Not sure how many places you tried getting your CCT from…but I found that the suppliers were selling incredibly different products…as CCT.  From some places the CCT was one of the most oily non-absorbing items in my oil blend…and CCT bought from other places….performed as expected.  If you are dissatisfied with your CCT…you might consider buying from a few other reputable sellers.

Thanks, that’s true, I should try it out and compare it to other versions I’ve tried. The current one isn’t particularly oily, non-absorbing or dissatisfying.. it’s just that CCT is in the formula mostly for spreadability.. but not for actual moisturisation. So I figured if I was going to introduce a light, high-spreading oil, the CCT would take the fall.

Having left the cream I made last night to ripen, I’m not sure I love the hemisqualane. On its own, it’s very light, thin (water-like) and absorbs quickly. But in the cream, when the cream is spread on the skin, it’s as if all the oils are immediately released from the emulsion and it’s more like spreading a mixture of liquid neat oils rather than spreading a cream. If I decide to keep it in the formulation, I think I probably should keep a combo of CCT and hemisqualane rather than replace it all.

[helenhelen]

Oh, an update on the hemisqualane. Replacing caprylic/capric triglyceride, it’s given a much more fluid consistency (it can be poured out of the container now), very slightly whiter emulsion, and has a thin oily nature on application, almost as if you’re putting on a light oil (like the Plantasens Olive LD) on the skin neat. But after it’s absorbed, the skin feels really soft and silky (more so than when using CCT). The whitening is decreased - it’s much harder to make it whiten. But I need to work out how to add thickening back in without making it gluey, more whitening (which would defeat the purpose of using hemisqualane), draggy or greasy. I think I need less hemisqualane than the original amount of CCT as well.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Do you live in the US?

I live in the UK but I lived in the US for a few years.

Graillotion said:

I took a novel, vs traditional approach to a non-DEET product.  EO’s have been done a million times….no need to repeat what has already been done and failed.  INNOVATE don’t repeat!

Yes, completely agree on this approach! I never liked the EO repellents. They never worked and they smell bad. One time one particular brand must have reacted with the chemicals/oils/sweat on my skin because it ended up smelling of vomit. I was visiting friends and we were trying to work out what the disgusting smell was.. before we realised it was me   :#:smiley:

Graillotion said:

 but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. .

Have you been able to purchase these in small quantities (as ingredients) ?

I meant I find them effective as a consumer! My favourite one is the Jungle Formula Kids one because it’s completely odourless and leaves no residue. It’s marketed as a kids repellent but I use it on myself as well. It also says it gives lower protection than DEET but I find it just as effective as 20% DEET.

[helenhelen]

What is in your oil phase? Maybe you’re not heating it up high enough? Try heating to at least 5°C (41°F) higher than the melting point of the material with the highest melting point.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient.  But more than likely, a combination of several things.  I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well.  I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier.  It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products).  The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.

I’ll have to look into daikon seed. I am planning to try hemisqualane tonight. I also have bamboo bioferment that has yet to be tried. I’ve collected quite a lot of weird ingredients now.. many unopened!

Good luck with your mosquito products. As someone who is super attractive to mosquitoes and also has “skeeter syndrome” (  ), I’m always interested in new repellents or treatments. I haven’t yet found any “natural” products strong enough at repelling for me (I can literally be the only person in a group of 200 people that gets bitten), but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. They were my best option after DEET which is horrible stuff.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Loving reading this chat!    All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely.  Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.)  And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).  
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones.  The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#  

That…and Pharma has been an amazing help!  Thank You!

Glad you’ve had success with eliminating the soaping entirely! I tried Isoamyl Laurate as well a long time ago.. I should dig out the sample and try it again actually. In my notes I wrote that it absorbed to a dry touch but left a slight residue. I also tried Ecosilk (Isoamyl Laurate & Isoamyl Cocoate) which is widely sold in Europe (another brand it exists as is Gosulin IL) which I noted left too much of an oily glisten on the skin for my liking. I think I’ve tried at least 80% of the “silicone alternatives” available on the market.. I always fall for the shiny marketing.. still haven’t learnt my lesson 

Yes I always find @Pharma ‘s  posts extremely helpful - lots of knowledge, tales of first hand experience and non-patronising. Very patient as well. He’d make a good teacher or lecturer

[helenhelen]

Pharma said:

Blunt answer: yes, it is full of mistakes. See, if your skin were alkaline enough to saponify triglycerides ON your skin, it would be alkaline enough to saponify triglycerides IN your skin turning YOU entirely into a giant junk of soap (with a saponified toddler on what once was your lap). BTW the surface of healthy skin is supposed to be slightly acidic.

Hi @Pharma. I’m glad I resurrected this thread then! No one had provided this detailed and useful information that you have just done. Obviously, I purposely typed up a load of nonsense so that a professional would feel forced to reply 

I agree that healthy skin is slightly acidic, but I do think (perhaps wrongly) it can be less acidic when it’s not healthy or after long term and persistent use of alkaline products (e.g. Lush body moisturisers that are based on stearic acid and triethanolamine) even after washing off, or immediately after a bath (with no product other than water) and towel drying. I have found creams soaping more in these two cases. Maybe that’s not from less acidity but something else. Maybe the bath case is from the additional liquid soaked into the skin.

Pharma said:

Dimethicone is an anti-foaming agent due to its ‘ultra-lipophilicity’ (it’s oilier than oil). This shifts the equilibrium of the emulsifier. The latter is a surfactant and surfactants soap aka foam if mixed with air and a liquid or emulsify if mixed with two liquids (i.e. water and oil). Dimethicone simply ‘uses up’ the emulsifier crashing it’s low surface tension and destroying foam/emulsion. That’s also the main reason why silicones require silicone emulsifiers to form emulsions.

That’s really interesting. So it’s not purely the “slippiness” of dimethicone that causes it to eliminate soaping? Is the slippiness just a property that comes with being “oilier than oil” but not the reason why it stops the soaping?

If I’ve read this correctly, the “soaping” I see in silicone-free emulsions is the emulsifier/surfactant mixing with air and liquid and thus foaming? Why does non-silicone oil not “use up” the emulsifier in the same way as dimethicone? E.g. in cases where adding more vegetable oil causes more soaping rather than less.

Is there really no non-silicone cosmetic ingredient that comes near dimethicone in terms of anti-foaming? 

Pharma said:

Olivem 1000 is something entirely different. The perception of soaping is not caused by the same effect. Here, I don’t know how it comes to ‘soaping’ (it’s not a chemical reaction, though!). Adding glyceryl stearate boosts its potential to build a lamellar structure aka liquid crystal network. I suppose it’s because the better that network, the lower chances become that the emulsion upon application (which means high sheer stress and water evaporation) turns from lamellar to hexagonal or similar (which would then follow the same rules as in the above case).

Interesting, thank you. I guess now I think about it, the whitening I have seen from a product containing Olivem 1000 was slightly different from the slight whitening I see from other silicone-free emulsions that don’t use Olivem 1000. Olivem 1000 whitening to me was like the product turning into a white paste the more it was rubbed. Whereas the whitening I see from other products is less pasty and disperses easily.

Lots for me to think about, thank you.

[helenhelen]

PeaceLoveNaturals said:

@helenhelen thanks so much. Im in the states so I will have to look around. That thread you linked was helpful. There is an overhead stirrer Ive been eyeing on Amazon for $90 but wasnt sure if it was just ganna be a load of junk haha. I will link it and see what you think. https://www.amazon.com/CO-Z-Electric-Height-Adjustable-Mixer0-3000-Mechanical/dp/B07TX82NBL/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1LTAEEOSVQ3FU&dchild=1&keywords=overhead+stirrer&qid=1592500577&sprefix=overhead+sti%2Caps%2C189&sr=8-3 But it looks maybe like what you have?

That looks very similar to the one I have… some small design differences but otherwise all the parts look identical. At $90 it’s worth a go!

By the way, I ended up buying a cheap clamp and bosshead clamp holder from Amazon as the clamp that came with the stirrer wasn’t great - difficult to adjust the fingers and it didn’t open very wide - even 100ml beakers were a struggle to fit.

I bought these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00VF0OWSA and https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07R9KGCXX (the clamp is too thick to fit in the bosshead that comes with the stirrer).

[helenhelen]

@Graillotion I have another theory about why dimethicone helps so well with soaping.

In my case, I believe soaping is coming from polar oils (most vegetable oils are polar while hydrocarbons like mineral oil are non-polar) being in an alkaline environment (e.g. barrier-compromised skin, or skin just out of the bath)… literally saponifying and turning into soap. The more polar the oil, the more likely it will soap. Using less of polar oils should be helpful, but in my case, the polar oils are the ones that perform better in terms of moisturisation.

Dimethicone is non-polar. I wonder if the reason it works so well at eradicating soaping is that it creates a barrier between the polar oil molecules and the alkaline environment, preventing the polar oil from reacting with the alkali and saponifying. I’ve heard cyclomethicone is also ok at reducing soaping but dimethicone is better. Perhaps it works less well than dimethicone because it is more volatile and less “coating”/persistent.

Squalane is non-polar so I was thinking of replacing some polar oil with it but I don’t know if it will be as moisturising. Neossance Hemisqualane (C13-15 Alkane) sounds interesting as a very light ester but it sounds like it’s used more for lightness and high spreading rather than moisturising, while plain squalane is better for moisturisation but is less light (as far as I can find out online, it is similar to caprylic/capric triglyeride but is more unctuous while being less greasy). I need to try them both out.

I wonder if the part success we’ve both had with Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables is due to Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables being squalane wax and thus reducing polarity.

The other thing I’ve heard helps with preventing soaping is adding a low HLB, non-ionic co-emulsifier to reduce saponification. This is why glyceryl stearate (HLB 3. is recommended alongside Olivem 1000.

Anyway, that’s my rambling thoughts typed up with a toddler on my lap… so this is probably full of mistakes.

[helenhelen]

A homogeniser is good for high speed but won’t help you for slow-medium speed stirring. If you only get one item, a stirrer is probably your best bet. I have this one and it’s fine: https://www.expondo.co.uk/steinberg-systems-electric-stirrer-10030256

I also have a Dremel + rotor stator combination which I love (see this thread https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/7409/homogenizer-specs-question-for-amateur-home-use). It’s perfect for me as I’m never going to make more than 100ml at a time (it’s just for home experimentation). It can probably handle up to 200ml. But if you get something like this and come up with a formulation that only works when you homogenise by rotor stator, and then want to scale up, you’ll then need a decent homogeniser that can handle larger volumes, which will be in the $000’s, unless you take a chance with the cheap ones on eBay/Amazon.

The Dynamix and Misceo homogenisers are only for volumes over 300ml… they’re going to incorporate a lot of air otherwise.

[helenhelen]

africanbug said:

@helenhelen
hi, it is interesting to learn new things but maybe you can start another discussion separately as it is not very fair to divert my post to your end?

Yes, sorry it ended up going quite off topic there. Good luck with your formulation.

[helenhelen]

MarkBroussard said:

@helenhelen

It has to do with the formation of the packing structures of the liquid crystals … it’s a different organization if you add the LC Emulsifier first to water as opposed to adding the LC Emulsifier first to oil.  You get a different skin sensorial.

Thank you. I’m curious to buy it and try it out both ways to see the difference.

Do you think Olivem 900 (sorbitan olivate on its own) should also be added first to water when using as a co emulsifier? It’s waxy flakes and the common instructions are to add it to the oil phase first. It is apparently dispersible in water though. I have some coming in the mail.

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

I know a lot of people which don’t like Olivem 1000, but I can’t imagine why? I like it a lot, and some of my best lotions are based on it. Olivem 1000 gives a deep moisturizing feel on the skin by itself, but I always combine it with other emulsifier. My best men’s moisturizer which has fantastic sensorials on the skin is based on Olivem+Emulprot.

With Olivem 1000 is possible to make that so called “water gel” which is only Olivem + water. If you add a little Dimethicone you will get a great summer moisturizer, which is breathable, light with fantastic softening properties.

I had a chemist make me a formulation a long time ago which used Olivem 1000. It felt nice but soaped a lot. I wonder if they added it to the oil phase (as all the instructions for Olivem 1000 seem to recommend) and if it would have been better added in the water phase. The formulation was also silicone-free so didn’t get the anti foaming properties of dimethicone.

Do you generally find Olivem 1000 works best with low levels of oil? And do you also always add dimethicone?

[helenhelen]

MarkBroussard said:

@helenhelen:

Yes, you should add liquid crystal emulsifiers, such as Olivem 1000, to the water phase.

Thanks Mark. That’s interesting as most people seem to add Olivem 1000 to the oil phase. I haven’t used it myself but I’ve been looking online the last couple of days for a scientific reason for why it’s better to add it (or any other emulsifier) to the water phase. I did see an old post on this forum where someone said they always used it in the water phase and never got the soaping effect. Are you able to enlighten me?

(This thread has slightly derailed, sorry!)

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

I tried a few combinations : SS + GMS SE, SS + GMS Citrate, SS + Olivem 1000. I have used 2-3% SS + 2-3% from the others. From my point of view the most pleasant combination was SS+GMS SE, and the second best was SS+Olivem 1000 (both at the water phase). SS+GMS Citrate was a kind of heavy and draggy for me. Just to notice, that i’ve used SS not only as a coemulsifier, but as a moisturizing agent! I think you can’t use SS instead GMS Citrate because they are quite different by their nature. You can use both instead.

Thank you, that’s helpful to me.

Also, out of interest, do you prefer adding Olivem 1000 in the water phase rather than the oil phase? Is there a difference in the final product?

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

I used to be use SS HLB 15 as a secondary emulsifier in the water phase, but to be honest I didn’t like its sticky feeling. About your formulation, I think the amount of SS is too small! Also as far as I know SS behaves better if it is pre-dissolved in water and left to rest for an hour or two before emulsification.I think, but maybe i’m wrong that at the second picture you have an emulsion fail. If you leave it for a couple of days it is possible to separate the water from oil.

Sorry to hijack the post, but what percentage did you use sucrose stearate for it to feel sticky? I was thinking of trying it as a co-emulsifier instead of glyceryl stearate citrate.

[helenhelen]

I last bought GSC from Alexmo-cosmetics.de. The flat rate shipping to the UK is €14 but it’s fast as they use DHL. You’ll probably want to look around the site to make the shipping cost worth it though. I have placed larger orders from them in the past, but last night paid the full shipping cost even on a basket value of €3 because I didn’t feel like I needed anything else at the time. Tip: as the ingredient names are in German, it’s better to search via INCI name (e.g. “avena” instead of “oat oil”).

[helenhelen]

@jemolian Thanks for all your help. I’ve requested a sample of HEC so will give it a go.

I also realised that HEC is what is used to make the slime in the stuff I’ve been buying from Amazon (e.g. here) to keep my kids amused during the lockdown. I was wondering what the ingredients were, as they basically just add pigment, repackage it into little packs and sell it in brightly designed boxes (pretty easy business), and presumably as it’s classed as a toy rather than a cosmetic product so they don’t list an INCI. But while looking up HEC, I see it’s sold as a slime ingredient (e.g. here and here).

[helenhelen]

jemolian said:

TBH, i’m not really a fan of gums, maybe because it makes my cream looks a little weird during pickup.

Do you mean the peaked trail that stretches out from the blob of cream on your fingertips?

jemolian said:

If i had to choose, i’d use HEC if there’s a heated phase, at least with HEC i don’t experience much of the slight weird skin feel that Xanthan Gum might give, but i don’t think HEC would be considered “natural”?.

Hmm it seems to be one of those ingredients where if a brand uses it, they’ve decided to say it’s “natural”.

Do you recommend any preferred brands or grades of HEC?

[helenhelen]

jemolian said:

The Dehydroxanthan Gum that i had made my cream pill or ball up, so it’s not something i’d use again in a leave on product, so i’ve also used it to thicken a micellar gel formulation instead. 

Normally if i have to add a gum, i’ll normally add HEC if it’s a heated water phase. Have you considered Solagum Ax or Solagum Tara?  

Thanks @jemolian, that’s helpful to know your experience with dehydroxanthan gym.

I haven’t tried HEC, Solagum AX or Solagum Tara yet as the combo of xanthan and sclerotium has been ok and I wasn’t sure if other “natural” gums or blends would do any better in terms of both stability and smoothness. I replaced some xanthan with sclerotium as it does help with the soaping of the overall product (doesn’t completely eliminate it though). Sclerotium on its own doesn’t seem to give as smooth a product, it starts feeling too slippy/greasy and the cream it forms is quite compact.. it reminds me of a blancmange in terms of the springiness. Do you think any of HEC, Solagum AX or Solagum Tara would do better than a xanthan/sclerotium blend?

I’ve also tried reducing overall gum, using more solids instead etc, but am still working on getting the perfect consistency and minimising soaping as much as possible.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Speaking of Xanthan gum….just curious, I am seeing complaints about it, and wonder at what levels these issues occur.  I use at either .2% and one formula at .3%.  I also only use the soft version.
Where do people start to notice negative effects?  (I have never noticed a negative effect.)  I incorporate into water phase with high shear before I even begin to heat the phase.

I guess as always it depends on what else is in the formulation, but I see negative effects at 0.5%. But that is in a formulation that is already high in ingredients that contribute to glueyness, smell and soaping. Xanthan gum manages to exacerbate all those properties.

[helenhelen]

MarkBroussard said:

Dehyroxanthan Gum will actually decrease the viscosity of your emulsion, depending on the ingredients … it is quite difficult to work with and is actually an ingredient used in hair styling products … it is not a general purpose thickening gum for skin care products.  Unless you are making a hair styling product, best you avoid it.

Thanks, that’s very helpful. That’s one less thing to try then!

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

… If you want that…have your tried FloraTech’s Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba.  It does a fabulous job of that… Took my product to a whole new level.  (Don’t think it will work in cold formulations, as it does not go into solution before water phase hits 140F.  Premix with equal parts glycerin.)  I use 2% and 2%.  It also gives some level of wash-off protection at the 2% rate.  It wasn’t till I added that…that I could still feel the effect of the lotion I put on before bed….the next morning.  Hehehe…..you’ll definitely sell less lotion.   (Because reapplication intervals are greatly lengthened.)

Thanks for the tip. I tried FloraTech’s Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba and it made my formulation less moisturising. But maybe I made the mistake of treating it as an “oil” instead of as a humectant. I replaced some oil with it, but maybe I should have replaced some glycerin instead.

I also wasn’t keen on the jojoba smell. It comes out when a product has no added fragrance. I liked the cushion and smoothing of another FloraTech product - Floraesters 20, but again, the jojoba smell came out too much.

[helenhelen]

Pharma said:

helenhelen said:

….
I wondered if it’s the long chain length of behenyl alcohol that makes it so drying on me. Perhaps it adheres too well to the oils in my skin and thus rinses them off too much when I wash my hands…

It’s the higher melting point which turns it waxy and hence the drier feeling compared to something which is malleable at skin temperature.

Personally, I like the powdery/silky afterfeel of cetyl palmitate more than the ‘oilier’ touch of cetyl alcohol. Maybe I should give behenyl alcohol a try?

Could this preference be a gender thing (we’re 2:2 and it coincides with gender)? 🙂

Yes it’s probably a gender thing. Literally any moisturiser turns into an oil slick on my husband’s hands and he doesn’t feel any difference between formulations.. they all just feel greasy to him. Whereas I need to feel a protective, emollient (but not slick) layer on my skin at all times otherwise I can’t stop thinking about all the moisture that is evaporating off and my skin shrivelling as every minute goes by.

It wasn’t just the dry feel of behenyl alcohol that disturbed me. It literally dried my skin out to the point of soreness, with lasting roughness and cracks. Even at that tiny amount.

BTW I can’t tell who’s male and who’s female on this forum! It’s impossible to tell! When I am reading people’s posts, I see them in my head as genderless beings.