[helenhelen]

Zink said:

 I’m avoiding using silicones, and have tried every “silicone alternative”

Just my 5 cents, but from a marketing POV there’s very little to gain by not using them (since it’s so common now to be “free of” everything it’s not a strong differentiator) and 99.9% of consumers just care about performance. I’d be more skeptical of adding something like Gransense from a long-term safety POV as its constituents are less well studied.

Completely see your POV. I still prefer not using them though.. even if it’s just for the challenge while I’m not bound by deadlines or budget. Yeah, I had a feeling Gransense wouldn’t make the cut (kind of didn’t want it to), but I just wanted to try it and rule it out anyway.

Zink said:

The moisturisation is where I want it, but there is still room for improvement on the look and feel. It’s close but not yet ready. It’s become a bit of an obsession.

Maybe an idea to invest in a TEWL meter to get some quantitative data from yourself and others, your skin could be abnormal. Also it’s hard to blind test different formulas and control all variables on yourself.

There’s a study that supports combining glycerin with diglycerin btw: 2016 Moisturizing effects of diglycerol combined with glycerol on human stratum corneum

I probably do have abnormal skin. I know I sound crazy and/or naive but using my own skin as a test bed is working well at the moment and is quick and easy. Once I am satisfied with how it performs and feels for myself, I will of course get more opinions. I have people who have tried old iterations of the formulation who liked it, but I’m not yet completely satisfied with the sensory aspects myself.

Yeah I’ve seen the glycerin:diglycerin studies - and for once, the results are reflected in real life for me. Unlike many other studies of interesting ingredients which ended up not doing anything for me. Worst one - meadowestolide 

[helenhelen]

Zink said:

I can’t really add any more fatty alcohols (from the DuraQuench) into my current formulation (they make the whitening effect go from being manageable to being annoying). 

Aka soaping effect? You could add 1% dimethicone to get rid of that.

Yes the pesky soaping effect. I’m avoiding using silicones, and have tried every “silicone alternative”, most of which did not eradicate the soaping in the way dimethicone would. I bought BioJelly from Making Cosmetics recently, which as far as I can see is Grant Gransense TC-8X (Coco-caprylate/caprate, triheptanoin, C9-12 alkane, dilinoleic acid/propanediol/PDI crosspolymer) which is “naturally-derived” and is the only non-silicone ingredient I’ve tried so far that actually breaks down the soaping like dimethicone, rather than just being a slip agent. But I don’t love the overall feel.. it’s quite greasy and shiny before it absorbs, not as elegant as real silicone.

I haven’t given up yet on the soaping yet though… there are a few other ingredients left to try.

Zink said:

I also have dry skin that feels minor differences in formulations very quickly - it’s been the bane of my adult life but is quite useful in testing tiny tweaks.

Kudos for doing elaborate experiments. Are you making products for yourself or for others btw?

I would like to eventually try to launch a skincare product or range.. only if I can get the first product to feel and look the way I want it to. The moisturisation is where I want it, but there is still room for improvement on the look and feel. It’s close but not yet ready. It’s become a bit of an obsession. I am using the samples on myself and the kids in the meantime.

Zink said:

I think you would like diglycerin - it does the job of what I thought K20W was going to do, without the sheen or loss in moisturisation.

Why aren’t you using it then?

I am! :p Out of the nearly one hundred rejected raw materials I’ve tried over six months, diglycerin has made it in. I’m not sure why it’s not more widely available.

Zink said:

Re: Jojoba oil, if I read the below study right it’s around 50:50 oils and wax esters, so approx 35% C20 eicosenoic acid and 24% C42 wax ester as its two largest constituents. Wonder if this implies you could use 4% jojoba oil and get similar moisturization efficacy to 1% floraester 20 which presumably is pure ester?

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1057.4104&rep=rep1&type=pdf

I’m not sure, but I saw the below chart recently from https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/Articles_MKT/MKT35.pdf (“The Chemistry of Floraesters”). When I tried Floraesters 15 (liquid and the closest of the esters to jojoba oil), it was nowhere near as effective at TEWL reduction as Floraesters 20. Even if I used Floraesters 15 at 4x the level I was using Floraesters 20, I don’t think it would have stopped my skin drying out… not to mention the difference in feel. There is much less cushion and protective feel with the Floraesters 15. And then Floraesters 30 was a greasy mess for me without being improving overall moisturisation performance. So perhaps the TEWL reduction is mostly coming from “monoenes”? (I need the “shrug” emoji here because I don’t have enough chemistry nous sadly!)

[helenhelen]

Zink said:

How much C42:2 wax esters does jojoba oil contain btw?

@Zink I randomly came across this while looking for something else.. is this what you were looking for?:

It was from here: https://www.essentialingredients.com/pdf/Floraesters15vJojobaoil.pdf

[helenhelen]

Zink said:

Duraquench should feel different than ISIS again, might be worth trying.

I think it’s meant to be used to enhance the humectancy of glycerin, but it wasn’t as effective as pure glycerin in the end

Floratech propose the hydrolyzed (basically Floraester 20 C42:2 split in half) K20W ester blend traps glycerin on the surface of the skin increasing its humectant potential. How can you tell it’s not as effective? Why not add it in a 1:3 ratio with glycerin or are you saying you think just adding more glycerin does a better job rendering K20W unnecessary? 

I could understand how K20W would make a product feel a bit more sticky if it keeps more glycerin on the skin surface.

I can’t really add any more fatty alcohols (from the DuraQuench) into my current formulation (they make the whitening effect go from being manageable to being annoying). I’m happy with the current moisturisation, I was just interested in trying ISIS because it sounded different to other oils.

I could tell the Floraesters K20W + glycerin mix (I tried 1:3) was not as good as glycerin on its own from using it on my skin (hands and body). At first I thought it seemed like the performance was the same (and I was glad to be able to reduce glycerin), but then after a few uses my skin started being visibly dry. My skin just seems to really like glycerin. I also have dry skin that feels minor differences in formulations very quickly - it’s been the bane of my adult life but is quite useful in testing tiny tweaks.

I’m ok with the level of glycerin now. I was just trying to find ways to reduce it as it was causing a strange smell in the final product. Then I realised (but only after many days of researching and trying every other humectant) it was just that batch of glycerin that was smelly.

I found replacing part glycerin with K20W was much less cushioned and sticky than glycerin on its own. But there was initial sheen from the K20W which I get from all jojoba-based products..

I think you would like diglycerin - it does the job of what I thought K20W was going to do, without the sheen or loss in moisturisation.

Zink said:

Well a barrier helps retain moisture, humectants only indirectly draw moisture too. Floratech has a couple datasheets on it, since it’s a long chain wax ester I’d be a bit concerned with skin feel and potentially comedogenicity, did you try it at 2%?

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/ClaimSheets/CS10-021.pdf
https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/ClaimSheets/CS10-030.pdf

How much C42:2 wax esters does jojoba oil contain btw?

I’ve only tried Floraesters 20 up to 1%. The skin feel is more refined than jojoba oil. It’s really nice and actually melds into the skin while still providing a light barrier, unlike some waxes which just feel like they sit on top of the skin (I got a bad result from Hydrogenated Olive Oil Decyl Esters recently that did that). Although again, there is a hint of a jojoba sheen when applying. I haven’t found a suitable replacement for it yet (would like to reduce that sheen). I also tried Floraesters 30 which was too lubricated and oily for me.

I have no idea about the C42:2 wax esters content!

[helenhelen]

Zink said:

 I tried out Crodamol ISIS but I didn’t love it. It is a little draggy and doesn’t seem to be as moisturising as Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride in my formulation. It feels ok going on but skin seems drier the next time it is rinsed with water (than with the 2% CCT it replaced). I wouldn’t recommend going out of your way to source it.

Why not try both? How much did you use? I’ve seen one study that supports 8%? CCT reducing TEWL 33% for up to 6 hours https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19296892/ but there also also studies showing ISIS reducing TEWL more than the equivalent dose petrolatum https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20642769/ 

I’m thinking of combining 5% CCT with 3% Duraquench in a BTMS based emulsion, but I’m also concerned by dragginess. Perhaps 1-2% Jojobaesters KW20 is a more elegant alternative here, but I’m concerned it creates a film that makes makeup application difficult?

Hi @Zink Do you mean try both CCT and ISIS at the same time? I still had a large portion of CCT remaining in the formula when I added in the ISIS. The ISIS just didn’t add anything positive vs the small part of CCT it replaced. I feel differences in moisturisation very easily/quickly (particularly on my hands) and I could feel the cream wasn’t as effective with the ISIS. I read all the studies on ISIS as well but the moisturisation didn’t materialise for me unfortunately (it’s sadly just one of many materials that I’ve tried that have performed nothing like as hoped!).

I didn’t find that Floraesters K20W creates a film. It’s absorbs quite cleanly without any residue. It wasn’t for me in the end. I think it’s meant to be used to enhance the humectancy of glycerin, but it wasn’t as effective as pure glycerin in the end. I like Floraesters 20 though - I find it helps to create a light barrier in the same way as cetyl alcohol does, but without the heaviness of cetyl alcohol when applying. It doesn’t moisturise by itself though - it just helps to hold in and extend the moisturisation of the other oils and humectants, even at less than 1%. It leaves a more smooth/cushioned afterfeel than Floraesters K20W.

[helenhelen]

Hi @Graillotion did you get to try DuraQuench in the end? I tried out Crodamol ISIS but I didn’t love it. It is a little draggy and doesn’t seem to be as moisturising as Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride in my formulation. It feels ok going on but skin seems drier the next time it is rinsed with water (than with the 2% CCT it replaced). I wouldn’t recommend going out of your way to source it.

[helenhelen]

@Graillotion I recently ordered Isostearyl Isostearate from Trulux. The prices on Trulux are generally much higher buying from Europe or the US, but there are some ingredients there you just can’t buy easily anywhere else. They ship via FedEx and I found the delivery from Australia to the UK is faster than from Europe sometimes (within a week). It might be even faster to Hawaii.

I know ISIS is available from Croda etc as well but I’ve started feeling guilty about the samples I’ve been requesting and receiving from distributors lately, and then not getting the result I want from the samples, and so not having any plans to purchase in the future. I’d rather pay to buy from a repackager and not feel that guilt of feeling like a freeloader!

I am waiting for the ISIS to arrive. Not sure yet what I’m planning to do with it - I guess it depends on how it feels. If it feels quite light, I guess I’ll try replacing some caprylic/capric triglyceride.

The DuraQuench material with the fatty alcohols sounds a bit heavy for what I need, but I wish there was a way to see and feel materials virtually without having to order them in!

[helenhelen]

Perry said:

I wish  I could figure out how to add a “like” button on this forum.

@Perry What about https://success.vanillaforums.com/kb/articles/22-reactions ?

[helenhelen]

Zeeshan said:

@helenhelen thank you for the feedback.

Instead of HEC, can I use Xanthan Gum? It is more readily available here in Kenya - I actually have some at home.

If I increase the % of CDEA would that help as well?

Thanks.

Sorry I have no idea on either question! But I’m sure someone has asked the same xanthan question somewhere if you search Google.

[helenhelen]

This is easy to do - add HEC (hydroxyethyl cellulose) into the mix. You can buy HEC easily online as it’s also sold as a slime ingredient and it’s safe on skin. You can get it unbranded or as Natrosol.

Continuously stir it in water for a while to hydrate it until it turns viscous and slightly gel-like (it’s not just a case of hand stirring it with a spoon but it also shouldn’t take hours). Then add the bubble ingredients. I don’t think glycerin is necessary.

If you search online, there are instructions for creating bubble mixes for giant bubbles, which describe exact ratios of ingredients. But for a casual bubble mixture for kids, a teaspoon or so of HEC in a beaker is a good place to start. Add more to make the mixture more gel-like and for the bubbles to last longer.

[helenhelen]

I found that Cosphaderm X Soft formed a sparkling, crystal clear gel compared to standard “transparent xanthan”, Cosphaderm X 34 and sclerotium gum, even in the presence of quite a few other ingredients. No experience of glycolic acid though.

Cosphaderm X Soft had a nicer pickup than standard xanthan gum (less stretchy) but I didn’t continue using it in the end because there was a weird waxy residue when I was using it in my cream formulation (maybe just some incompatibility with the other ingredients).

[helenhelen]

I find it too sticky and it grabs onto the skin too much which means the stickiness/tackiness lasts through washes. It makes me just want to wash my skin immediately. It’s not the miracle humectant I was hoping for anyway!

There is a recent humectant thread here https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/7838/lets-compare-humectants#latest

I haven’t found any humectant I like the afterfeel more of than glycerin. Everything is either sticky to me (like having spilt a sugary drink on the skin) or the hydration is too short lived vs glycerin. (I haven’t been using propylene glycol, propanediol or butylene glycol though which are probably nice feeling alternatives).

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

Yes, Inutec H25P

Thanks, I will try Inutec H25P again then. I only briefly tried it mixed with water.. I didn’t actually try it in an emulsion.

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

I use pure Inulin (Inutec) in my lotions at 2 - 3% and I’ve never noticed any traces of stickiness.

Hi @ggpetrov, is “Inutec” the full name of the product you use? I couldn’t find an inulin with that name… only “Inutec H25P” (substitute for cationic conditioning polymers) and “Inutec SL1” (stabiliser). I have Inutec H25P but it was also sticky. Thanks.

[helenhelen]

Another interesting one to add - Gobiotics preBIULIN AGA (inulin). I’ve only tried it at 2% in water, and not in a formulation. To me it is more hydrating, softening and long lasting than glycerin (against 2% glycerin in water), but there is a very slight sugary, sticky feel that develops after 10 minutes or so, whereas the 2% glycerin feels completely “clean” on the skin. I’m not sure it’s usable due to the sticky feeling… I think I would still feel it even if used at <1%. It does seem to continue hydrating over time though, as per their marketing.

[helenhelen]

Pharma said:

IMHO sorbitol doesn’t last as long as glycerol but is less tacky. Can’t comment on the moisture performance.

I prefer xylitol over sorbitol but for other reasons than humectancy.

I usually work with dry/pure ingredients.

@Pharma Thanks, that’s useful. How does sorbitol compare to betaine for you? Does it last longer?

[helenhelen]

I been trying a few different humectants lately…

Erythritol leaves a horrible tackiness.. I really didn’t like it.

Betaine doesn’t leave as comforting a feel as glycerin. The hydrated moistness of the skin doesn’t last as long as with glycerin (it evaporates off shortly after) and it has a sort of sliminess when the skin is rinsed later. 

I bought some sodium lactate liquid but it felt very tacky on the skin when I tried it neat… more so than neat glycerin (to me anyway). It’s less thick, but there is still a tacky afterfeel that doesn’t go away.

Floraesters K-20W Hydrolysed Jojoba Esters helps to reduce glycerin tack and reduce the amount of glycerin needed (thanks for the tip @Graillotion - I tried it before but got much better results this time by using it properly).  But it hasn’t solved my problem completely.

I already have panthenol and pentylene glycol in the formulation (cream for dry skin), but the former is sticky and the latter expensive.

Glycerin just has a more comforting feel for my dry skin than the above mentioned materials. But at high concentration, it’s thick, has an initial tack until absorbed and has a funny smell (at least, the organic one I have from Alexmo has a slight, what people would describe as a “chemical” smell.. which I can’t remember if it was there in the non-organic glycerin I had previously from Alexmo).

I am thinking of trying sorbitol next. @ngarayeva001, @Pharma, what do you like/dislike about sorbitol? And is powder or liquid preferable?

I saw here that ethylhexylglycerin can mitigate some of the downsides of glycerin. Are there any other ingredients like this?

[helenhelen]

Pharma said:

Why would there be a difference unless you’re working with an anhydrous product and use 80% v.s. 98% glycerol or try to pre-disperse a gelling agent such as xanthan gum in 80% instead of 99.5%. Even the 98% can be suboptimal for that and hence, using a dry solvent is my preferred choice.

I always take water ‘contamination’ into account and adjust for that. This means, no difference in the end product observed.

Drawback of using >98% is that it’s hygroscopic and dry glycerol becomes <98% at some point. Alas, there’s usually no knowing how wet your glycerol actually is. With hygroscopic powders you’ll see when they turn too wet and sticky but a liquid always remains a liquid.

Thanks @Pharma, always a great source of wisdom.

[helenhelen]

Siligel is known to smell bad after a while if you don’t use a chelator and antioxidant.

[helenhelen]

I have no idea on the proportions of the ingredients but as a consumer with very dry skin, I really like the very simple Bio D hand-wash. I find most hand washes too drying but this one cleanses well without residue but doesn’t seem to sap my skin. It has a nice lather and I also have it in foaming pump dispensers. I like the fragrance free version.. it has no weird smell.

https://biodegradable.biz/shop/hand-soaps/bio-d-sanitising-hand-wash-fragrance-free-500ml/

The ingredients listed on the bottle are:

Aqua, Sodium Laureth Sulphate, Cocamide DEA, Sodium Hydroxide, Citric Acid, Lactic Acid, Sodium Chloride

I don’t know why the ingredients listed on the website are slightly different to the ingredients on the bottles…

[helenhelen]

https://incidecoder.com/ ?

[helenhelen]

ngarayeva001 said:

@helenhelen, if your product doesn’t include any electrolyte sensitive ingredients such as carbomers, sodium lactate is the best. Not tacky at all and more hygroscopic than glycerin.

Thank you @ngarayeva001 , that’s really helpful to hear your experience of sodium lactate. I will add it to my neverending list of things I should try.

Graillotion said:

The issue I was having was…even with brief opening of the bag it is stored in, it is such an effective humectant, that it was gathering moisture.  Keep in mind that I live on the wet side of Hawaii…so relative humidity essentially never drops below 90.
I did end up keeping the betaine, at a lower rate.  Because I added Floratech’s K-20W Jojoba, that wants to be slurried in glycerin first, my hand was forced.  I also use sodium lactate.
I have NEVER had any odor issues with the natural Betaine I am using….resembles table sugar.  No negative odor…and let me tell you….if something were to smell fishy…. I would pick up on it.

Thanks, that’s useful to know! 90% humidity  😮 😮 :o.

[helenhelen]

Hi @Graillotion, I was looking into replacing some glycerin in a cream with less tacky humectants and this thread came up. I wondered what grief you were getting with the betaine in high humidity. Did you end up replacing it with glycerin in the end or did you stick with the betaine?

Also, did you ever find the betaine giving off a fishy smell? I saw this mentioned a few times from various people.

Thank you!

[helenhelen]

helenhelen said:

I also saw this video which seemed to get a more aerated result from the Dynamix than her usual homogeniser (which is now discontiued).. although to be fair, she didn’t seem that bothered by it.

There was also so much spray when she used the Dynamix (there was product jumping out of the beaker), that it really put me off the Dynamix for small volumes. Although I just noticed that in her test, she used a smaller beaker for the other blender (which meant the blender could go deeper into the liquid)… and maybe she also used too high a speed on the Dynamix… so maybe it wasn’t a fair representation of the Dynamix. But in any case, I was put off by potential aeration which I am very averse to.

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

helenhelen said:

PeaceLoveNaturals said:

@Graillotion And would $300 be affordable for a homogenizer?

I would say that is very affordable. But unfortunately you’d still be stuck with the 300ml minimum volume you should use the homogeniser with. That’s the reason I didn’t go for the Dynamix + homogeniser attachment in the end. Otherwise it looked great.

That’s not true at all! I’ve seen you already mentioned that in several places at the forum, but you can mislead the users which are interested in this device. Dynamix with the homogenizer attachment could cope with 100ml of lotion perfectly. I am doing a lot of experiment at my home and my base volumes are always 100ml. I’ve never had a problem with this volumes.

Apologies if I have misled anyone - I haven’t used the device personally and that wasn’t my intent. The 300ml minimum was the advice given to me from the Misceo team regarding their smallest homogeniser, Misceo 250, which is the same size as the Dynamix (Misceo and Dynamix are both made by Dynamic). The specs in the product descriptions for both mention volumes of 1-4l, so it seemed a bit of a stretch to go down to 100ml when I was doing my purchasing research… but again, no personal experience, so I’m glad you manage to get it to work with 100ml.

I also saw this video which seemed to get a more aerated result from the Dynamix than her usual homogeniser (which is now discontiued).. although to be fair, she didn’t seem that bothered by it.

The combination of those two sources of information and no one previously telling me otherwise were what led me to conclude the minimum workable volume would be 300ml.