[helenhelen]

@Graillotion I am a lifelong user of hand creams. The skin on my face has always been good, but the skin on my body, in particular on my hands and feet, is insanely dry.. like it has no natural water, oil or wax. I often fantasise what it would be like to have a shower or wash my hands and not have to immediately apply moisturiser.

My dream hand cream is one that leaves my hands feeling like a normal person’s hands. It’s not so much that I want to feel *residue* on my skin hours later, but I just want them to still feel perfectly moisturised and comfortable hours later… without that feeling of moisture having evaporated off, or cracks appearing in the surface of my skin. So for me, I would want a combination of A and B - I want my skin to feel “nude”/natural and healthy, but due to my dry skin that lacks enough natural moisture, oil and wax, that probably equates to needing some sort of long-lasting emollient or occlusive layer that *feels like* skin and that doesn’t feel like wax/silicone/oil.

I read a lot of skincare reviews.. it has been one of my obsessions for the last 20+ years. There are at least two types of hand cream needs, as @RedCoast has mentioned above. There are the people who want that “gardener’s hand cream” feeling from a cream, and who are happy for something very waxy that they need to work into the skin and to not touch anything for a while (e.g. The Body Shop Hemp Hand Protector). And then there are the people who want to apply hand cream and immediately be able to use their keyboard without leaving greasy marks (they also more interested in having a highly fragranced product than the aforementioned group). From what I can tell, these are the people who don’t have particularly dry skin and can easily go days without applying moisturiser - they are happy with products that would dry out my skin to the point of pain. But then I always wonder why these people bother to apply hand cream if they don’t need to.. they’d be better off leaving their skin barrier alone if it’s working as it should.

I also find it interesting how hand creams feel for different skin types. The cream that I make for myself on is soaked up instantly by my hand skin with no oily residue.. just leaving a comfortable and conditioned feel afterwards. But on my husband and sister’s hands, it’s almost like their skin rejects it because their skin already has enough water, oil and wax.. so they often describe the cream as sitting on their skin, not going anywhere.. it just slides around on their skin. I always wanted to create a hand cream that would be pleasant to use for all skin types but also effective on my unusually dry skin… but I can see that would be quite difficult.

Anyway, I’ve just read what I just typed and none of it sounds particularly helpful to you! I guess what I am suggesting is that the feeling of residue on the skin is only desired by people like me if it is a necessary byproduct of perfectly moisturised skin. If you can achieve perfectly moisturised skin that stays moisturised and healthy-feeling over an extended time, without any residue, that would be my first choice (so option B ).

[helenhelen]

abierose said:

helenhelen said:

@Graillotion Something I have noticed recently about behenyl alcohol is that despite its cushion, it can feel quite “empty” on the skin compared to cetearyl alcohol… it misses a deeper adhesiveness which I think comes from the stearyl alcohol in cetearyl alcohol.

Have you noticed this “empty” feeling with Cetyl Alcohol as well? Lately I have experienced that same “empty” feeling with a few of my latest formulations and I have been using cetyl instead of cetearyl in these formulations…could this be all or part of the reason I am also getting that “empty” “meh” kind of feeling from them now…?

Yes I can’t use cetyl alcohol (instead of cetearyl alcohol) for that reason.. it just isn’t protective enough on my (dry) skin… it’s quite “airy” compared to cetearyl alcohol which has a more substantive waxy feel. Cetearyl alcohol feels more emollient and occlusive on my skin as well, and helps hold the moisture in.

Cetearyl alcohol also gives a glossier, more opaque look to my creams. Sometimes I find cetyl alcohol gives a chalky look in the pot, but with translucency on pickup… a less professional/premium experience.

Maybe try switching back to cetearyl alcohol to see if it helps with the “meh” feeling.

I’ve got some stearyl alcohol coming tomorrow as I’m interested to see what it feels like on its own, without cetyl alcohol.

[helenhelen]

@Graillotion Something I have noticed recently about behenyl alcohol is that despite its cushion, it can feel quite “empty” on the skin compared to cetearyl alcohol… it misses a deeper adhesiveness which I think comes from the stearyl alcohol in cetearyl alcohol.

[helenhelen]

Have you considered this option (OCIS homogeniser head on a Dremel)? It’s a great solution for your needs… although still quite expensive. It’s what I use for small, hobby/sample volumes. I have the smaller one and am able to homogenise 30ml with no aeration. Never had any problems and I’ve used it 300+ times.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Awesome description.  The hand cream I am working on has 3.6% fatty alcohol, with behenyl being twice as much as Cetyl.  I think you have given me courage to try doing 100% behenyl.

I just got two new crosspolymers today….which felt absolutely astounding neat on the skin….and monumentally better than the first one I bought.  So I will have to run those through the formula…and I will try removing the cetyl and going with 100% behenyl.

Thank you so much for your detailed description.  This is that Illipe butter hand cream I mentioned a while back.  It has some candelilla, glyceryl oleate, and polyisobutene in it…., so getting some really good moisturizing.   Plus I think I have stumbled across some synergies with HA and various silicones.

Sounds worth trying 100% behenyl. I personally found behenyl on its own nicer feeling than behenyl + cetyl as the cetyl reduced the cushiony coverage, making it less smooth (more gappy/skippy). But that was with a lower level of behenyl than you are already using. Someone on this forum described behenyl alcohol as “bouncy” which I think is a good way to describe how it feels in a cream.

I think I will have to try the glyceryl oleate. I’ve seen it before but wasn’t sure if it was anything I needed at the time.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Could you describe what you like about behenyl….and what you switched from?   I have also started using behenyl in my latest hand cream.  But was having trouble putting my finger on what I liked about it.

I have tried all the fatty alcohols in this body cream (which is mostly for my dry hands) I’ve been trying to perfect. I moved from cetyl alcohol (too thin, not protective or cushioned enough) to cetearyl (too oily-waxy) to behenyl. The behenyl alcohol has been able to give a softer, more cushioned, velvety afterfeel than cetyl and cetearyl. Also, due to that cushion, it allows the applying hand to smoothly skim over the skin during application which gives an elegant/modern feel. It also works well with more oily/buttery ingredients as all together, they help to form that smooth cushion on the skin. It takes some tweaking to get it to that point. You need to add enough behenyl alcohol for the wax to have enough coverage to give that smooth/skimmable feel without any gaps/skips. But not too much that it gets draggy and whitening. This balance seems to depends on the other ingredients. I’ve tried some products where I can really feel that softness and elegant cushion of the behenyl alcohol.. and I feel that they are able to pack so much behenyl alcohol in because their other ingredients are very light.. Avene Tolerance Emulsion for example, which is really light and silky to apply but with that soft, cushioned afterfeel (maybe at least 3% behenyl alcohol or more seeing as it’s the only wax ingredient?). I can also feel the behenyl alcohol in Augustinus Bader The Body Cream, where they’ve gone for a heavier, draggy product but with the same soft, cushioned, skimmable afterfeel. It’s combined with a lot of shea butter and other waxes so they might have less behenyl than the amount used for the Avene product.

I was surprised that behenyl alcohol wasn’t as draggy or whitening as I thought it would be.

Is any of the above what you liked about it??   :smiley:

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Are you meaning palmitic acid as a sole ingredient?  Or also including carrier oils/butters high in palmitic?  You know where I stand on that topic.  

I know it is not the same…but I really like using cetyl palmitate  vs cetyl alcohol.  I feel it makes for a much more elegant end product.

Yep, I mean palmitic acid as a sole ingredient, which I also found it hard to buy… had to order it from Making Cosmetics in the end… there was nowhere in the UK or Europe that had it. That’s compared to stearic acid which is easily obtained everywhere.

My skin seems to like oils and butters which have higher levels of palmitic acid, which is why I was curious to try palmitic acid as a sole ingredient.

I tried cetyl palmitate in this version of a body cream I’ve been making, and it wasn’t quite the right feel or moisturisation. But I have tried it in the past where it did better. I am liking behenyl alcohol at the moment.

[helenhelen]

suswang8 said:

i thought palmitic acid is supposed to be a one-way ticket to acne (in those with acne-prone skin, at least)?

I forgot to add to my original post that when I say “moisturisers”, I mean body lotions/creams, rather than face. I too have heard that palmitic and stearic acid can clog pores too. But lately I have been using a sunscreen which contains stearic and palmitic acid (plus triethanolamine) and my pores look great. I’m not acne-prone though.

[helenhelen]

chemicalmatt said:

Palmitic acid is a good builder in structured body wash systems - the kind with spherulite oil loads embedded. It’s also a critical element in traditional shave creams with tromethamine. Other than that, stearic has better performance in most applications and is a few shekels per kg less expensive to boot, so that may be why you don’t see it as often.

Thanks @chemicalmatt, that makes sense.

[helenhelen]

MattTheChemist said:

A prominent dermatologist I formulate for is big on anal bleaching and even does micro-botox to “smooth the anus wrinkles”. He wanted a take-home topical that can elongate clinical bleaching efficacy, as well as smooth/plump the wrinkles. All I could think about was a) who is looking at the anus this close up, and b) who the fu*k cares! He hinted at having adult performers as patients, and that these treatments were big in Holywood overall. I respectfully declined the project. 

OMG nooooooooo     

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

Thank you for taking the time to describe illipe butter for me. I bought some to try (just from a quick and easy source, not ICSC) and I see what you mean about the deep softening. For me, it feels very “complete” on the skin compared to other butters. Most butters (and many veg oils too) leave my skin feeling like there is something not quite right… like it is oily but a bit depleted. But illipe seems to be more “rounded”, adding something substantive (but not too waxy) into the skin to keep it supple and protected (like a leather protectant). I can see how it would be nice in a hand cream.

Just curious….. I want to pair the Illipe…with another butter in this hand cream.  What in your opinion (and anyone else that wants to chime in)… would be a good pairing….at first I was thinking cocoa…but after doing some neat testing yesterday….figured they are too similar.

Kokum…comes to mind…just for the higher melting point…for a product (small hand cream for purse)…  that won’t be just sitting on the bathroom counter.  (Also seems to be a little bit the rage now.)

Cupuacu… also comes to mind…

Well I really like kpangnan butter which I bought based on your mentions of it. I swapped mango butter out for it as kpangnan is smoother to apply and has that nice silky afterfeel that I haven’t felt in other butters. The old mango butter feels really crude in comparison.

I haven’t really seen any wow effect from cupuacu (I tried a couple of refined ones). It has a dry afterfeel, and I didn’t find any benefit from its supposed water holding properties.

I recommend you try shea oil. It has a deep moisturising effect without the surface oiliness you get from oils like avocado oil, and without the drag of a butter.

I’m wondering if it’s the palmitic acid in the illipe butter that my skin likes. When I look at the fatty acid profiles of all the oils and butters I like, they’ve all got relatively high palmitic acid content. I’ve ordered some to try adding neat.

It’s funny you mention the word, “unctuous” because it’s what I am always aiming for. My notes on hand/body creams I’ve made often say “not unctuous enough”. I want something that is of whipped double cream consistency, but that melts and glides over the skin with no drag and then absorbs with no oily afterfeel, but a silky and lightly protected feel.

As a benchmark for feel, try Elemis Skin Nourishing Body Cream https://uk.elemis.com/skin-nourishing-body-cream.html. It feels incredible going on. It glides evanescently over the skin as if you’re stroking a bit of silk fabric over the skin, then has a final perceptible squish/melt into the skin with literally zero drag at any point. Then the skin is left with a slightly powdery, silky and light protective feel. I don’t like any other Elemis body products… unlike their face creams, I think they all feel quite cheap and are not very moisturising. But this one uses the emulsifier, Biophilic H, which I think is what gives it that soft feel, along with the pentaerythrityl distearate (Cutina PES) wax. I’ve used Biophilic H before but I couldn’t get it to work for me.. the process is too long winded (there’s an extra step to hydrate the hydrogenated lecithin) and it’s very expensive as well. It does have a nice feel though.. it also contains palmitic acid as an ingredient which I always wondered was the secret to the feel. Also, I’ve noticed Elemis use Dicaprylyl Carbonate and Isononyl Isononanoate in all their face and body creams. As someone else already mentioned somewhere, Dicaprylyl Carbonate is worth getting hold of. It is cushioned, and leaves a slightly powdery but not “dry dry” finish, and I personally find it more moisturising than other light esters.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.

Another one to add to my list of butters to try that you’ve recommended! How do you find it feels and softens compared to kpangnan butter?  

Arrgh…how to describe….
When I evaluate butters…there are so many aspects…from initial feel…to silkiness…greasiness…absorption….rub in texture…and shine…to how they feel 10-15 min after application…etc.   But let me try.

I have a high aversion to anything oily/greasy…and not quite as much….things that make me shiny. ::smile:

Note context:  All butters were sourced from ICSC (Denmark).  There is out of this world variability…between suppliers so this is actually an important note.  (Also to be noted… ICSC’s more refined butters are less likely to have variability, batch to batch.)

So of the butters (I have tried)….Murumuru is the most silky…and gives the most glide at time of application….so it has its place.

Illipe…does not have any type of neat feel upon application that will blow your mind.  In fact it was not until about 10 minutes after application…that I gave it a ‘wow’.  Ever felt that perfectly oiled piece of leather???  Well that is what the back of the hand that I applied the Illipe on felt like (after 10-15 min).  I could not stop touching it…hehehe…not something that usually happens.

So therefore…Illipe will not be helpful in getting that first impression rose.  But if you want a product that will bring them back…. Find a way to make that first impression another way…but keeps the lasting impression that Illipe can give.

By the way….if an ingredient wants to get my attention….it is the 15 min after application feel….that is the way to this man’s heart.  

Thank you for taking the time to describe illipe butter for me. I bought some to try (just from a quick and easy source, not ICSC) and I see what you mean about the deep softening. For me, it feels very “complete” on the skin compared to other butters. Most butters (and many veg oils too) leave my skin feeling like there is something not quite right… like it is oily but a bit depleted. But illipe seems to be more “rounded”, adding something substantive (but not too waxy) into the skin to keep it supple and protected (like a leather protectant). I can see how it would be nice in a hand cream.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.

Another one to add to my list of butters to try that you’ve recommended! How do you find it feels and softens compared to kpangnan butter?  

[helenhelen]

Silicones?

[helenhelen]

abierose said:

Wow! That is good to know that you get a strong healing effect from Panthenol. It seems like the general consensus amongst consumers is that Panthenol does add benefit to cosmetic products. I can understand why it is pointless to use it in rinse off products though. Prior to becoming a member of this site, I actually had no idea that in the cosmetic chemists’ world, Panthenol is generally refarded as having little to no effect in cosmetics and since learning this, I must admit that I now have a hard time trusting a marketed product that lists Panthenol in their ingredients. But I’ve also heard that Argan oil isn’t anything more than a “label appeal” ingredient too, yet I know people who SWEAR that it does wonders for their hair ????‍♀️ 
As far as Allantoin goes, I only use it at point 3 percent (.3%) in my formulations and I always add it in the cool down ingredients to prevent any recrystalization, which would cause the exfoliating effect you mentioned. 
Thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback on this topic! I really appreciate any and all the information I get!

I personally like argan oil! For the skin though, not for the hair.. actually I don’t like any oils in the hair. Like panthenol though, I think argan oil has lost its marketing appeal, again due to over-use/over-exposure in low-performing products.

Re. allantoin I never saw an exfoliating effect from recrystalisation, but I read that it’s keratolytic. Given how much cream I use on my hands, I didn’t really want to risk over-doing it and inadvertently ending up with even drier skin.

[helenhelen]

@abierose I get a strong healing effect from panthenol on my parched skin. When I’ve used the liquid version on my skin neat, it has a definite positive effect.. obviously I would never use it regularly like that as it’s so sticky… I’ve only ever used it neat to get a feel for what it does. It also usually has an effect on a formulation… sometimes it makes it feel nicer (richer, rounder), sometimes worse (sticky, draggy). You just have to try different levels and see what works.

As a consumer, I would never seek out panthenol in products though. It’s not very exciting.. a bit overdone by the whole Pantene thing in the old days.

I used to use allantoin but when I left it out, I didn’t see any negative effect so I haven’t picked it back up. I also wondered if it had an exfoliating effect and could actually be problematic/drying when used repeatedly (as I would use a cream on my hands)…  

[helenhelen]

Oops sorry I just realised my last reply the other day posted three times. I think it was because it didnt allow the attachment I was trying to add.. but it still posted the text. I thought the error would have stopped the text posting. Anyway, I ended up adding the file as a link in the third post.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

 Yes, I am using the acai sterols (at that rate)…and love what they have done.  @Pharma had originally recommended the Mac nut sterols….but for the life of me…could not find them at any kind of reasonable price.  (Would have really helped with my Hawaiian theme!)

Haha @ Hawaiian theme! Yeah the Phytosteryl Macadamiate is fairly easy to get hold of from the German repackagers but is expensive.. at least double the cost of the Acai or Pomegranate Sterols.

Graillotion said:

I guess I did not realize there would be any type of textural / performance  difference between the feedstock of Acai vs pomegranate sterols.  I think I just went with the acai…cus it was cheaper.

I would love to hear you elaborate….on those differences in detail.  Eventually….I will get around to finishing my night cream…..right now I am taking a formulating break….hehehe….good to be retired.

I was the same - I bought the Acai Sterols first thinking the two would be the same. But they are completely different. While the Acai Sterols is thick, it still melts quite easily on a warm spatula or on the skin with only light pressure and feels quite silky after eventually sinking in. The Pomegranate Sterols is much, much thicker. The consistency is like almost-hardened hot glue.. very firm and barely penetrable even with a warm spatula. It doesn’t really melt on the skin, you have to apply a lot of pressure to try to spread it, but then it remains on the surface as a  thick, sticky layer (opposed to silky like the Acai Sterols).

In a cream, the Pomegranate Sterols is nowhere near as tacky as when it is neat. But it does add a final drag after all the other emollients have finished spreading (the Acai Sterols doesn’t have such a big effect on drag). It is much more substantial than Acai Sterols though.. and gives deeper and longer lasting moisturisation (it can probably be used neat as a lip balm like lanolin). I find all three sterol materials have different benefits though… I think my skin likes the fatty acids in the Acai Sterols and Phytosteryl Macadamiate. But the Pomegranate Sterols definitely gives the deepest moisturisation.

I’d be interested in how the “All Over Body Whip” in the attached example formulation feels with 2% Pomegranate Sterols as it sounds extremely draggy to me.. but maybe it’s not so bad when it’s in a very buttery mix.

[helenhelen]

Another material you could try, that actually reminds me of Meadowestolide is AvenaPLex:

“AvenaPLex (Avena sativa (Oat) Kernel Extract) is a complex of skin identical lipids (including ceramides, phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylethanolamine) that delivers the short-term and long-term protection of aged skin. Thanks to its unique composition, AvenaPLex assists in the rapid absorption of skin beneficial molecules, supplements skin lipids, aids the strengthening of the dermis and helps prevent the loss of skin elasticity and firmness.”

It’s very thick, sticky and draggy. It had some positive effect on moisturisation but I would choose the three previously mentioned ingredients over it.

[helenhelen]

  Your posts make me smile as for some reason we seem to get led down the same rabbit holes.. but at different times.

I got a sample of Meadowestolide last year as the studies on it made it sound AMAZING. So I was quite disappointed when it arrived and it was a thick, sticky tar-like, strong yellow-coloured substance that didn’t do anything for moisturisation or skin feel. I tried it at 1% and didn’t try it again. It made the cream very draggy and sticky without having any positive effect on performance, and the yellow colour came through too. Presumably the products that contain it are using a much lower level.

Shame we live on opposite ends of the world otherwise I could have given it to you to try.

For the effect that is touted by Meadowestolide, you could try Pomegranate Sterols or Phyto-Oil C3 from Active Concepts/Formulator Sample Shop, or Phytosteryl Macadamiate. All work well at low levels (0.5% or less). Pomegranate Sterols provides long-lasting, deep moisturisation but is even thicker and tackier than pure lanolin.. and will reduce slip. It’s a completely different feel and performance to Acai Sterols which I know you already use. Phyto-Oil C3 stinks like plastic fake leather… which I think is from the fatty acids… but it heals skin immediately and I haven’t found anything as good at that… but I can’t get over the smell. Phytosteryl Macadamiate adds substantivity like Pomegranate Sterols but is less tacky and more elegant in feel.

[helenhelen]

You say you asked the supplier, but have you asked the manufacturer?

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Speaking of specialty emulsifiers….  I have a very difficult emulsion using 165 and GSC.  The formula  contains mixed EO’s at 3%.  It appears as though the EO’s start to ‘leak out’ of the emulsion after 6 months of my torture test…( half full clear containers in my sunniest window).

Do you have any non-polar ingredients in there? I used to get this issue with squalane with a different lamellar-forming emulsifier. It drove me mad as I liked the feel of squalane but it would always start seeping out of the emulsion after a month without fail, or even earlier with heat and movement. This was even with tiny amounts of squalane like 0.5%. I put it down to the emulsion not being able to hold onto the squalane sufficiently (e.g. page 7/8 of the attached study I found). But I never solved the problem (I’m not a chemist) and gave up on squalane. 

[helenhelen]

Maybe look up octyldodecanol..

Babassu oil is a nice light oil that is solid at room temperature (low melting point though).

Also, hemp oil oxidises very quickly… it smells horrible when it goes rancid. Not sure it’s worth adding to a deodorant product!

[helenhelen]

Are you sure people care about the smell? What does it smell like?

I would rather have a smelly food product (as long as the smell was normal and not due to it being “off”) than an odourless food product that has some weird additives in it to make it less smelly.

Maybe just package it in something that keeps the smell in?

[helenhelen]

Pharma said:

I’m still playing around with pentylene glycol. Yes, it does sometimes seem to negatively impact emulsions, so does GMCY. Thanks for sharing your observations. I had the impression it were the other way round???

I’m currently adding it ‘blindly’ to all my creations because I just like it and it is, theoretically, a good fit and great additional safety strategy aka hurdle in conjunction with levulinic and anisic acid (there may be stronger similar blends/boosters but I prefer its ‘naturalness’ and multi-functionality).

Right now, it’s hard to tell what makes them hold of separate… I’m still in the phase of playing/messing around with new ingredients, nothing serious, just observing and learning by failure. I know, my approach isn’t strategically optimal because I use too much new stuff at once. Especially the polyglyceryl esters behave differently than what I’m used to and they are somewhat less forgiving than PEG derivatives and other pharma standards. Combining that with a ‘natural’ hurdle approach and poorly understood production processes such as d-phase emulsification is maybe too much to really get to know each ingredient better but it makes my hobby more interesting.

@Pharma I haven’t had any issues with pentylene glycol negatively impacting emulsions as long as it’s added before emulsification (yet). If I add it in during cooldown, I often see and hear it fizzing the emulsion apart. All the manufacturers recommend adding these “difficult” ingredients after emulsification to avoid destabilisation but it seems to make it worse that way for me. It can look ok at first if I add it really late in the cooldown (giving the emulsion more time to get stronger) but the emulsion always starts showing signs of separation 1-2 days later. It seems GMCY, ethylhexylglycerin, caprylyl glycol give me the same problem so far.

I tried adding MultiMEG during homogenisation instead of cooldown (the manufacturer said it could be added in the water phase as long as long term heating e.g. 20 minutes over 80 °C was avoided). It seemed ok… but then I added a preservative that included caprylyl glycol during cooldown, and I could tell immediately that the emulsion had tiny breaks in it.. full of tiny oily micro bubbles/globules… and of course it started separating the next day. So now I don’t know whether the MultiMEG would have been ok if I hadn’t added the other preservative at cooldown. Every time I change more than one thing at once, I regret it… it’s always a false economy!

I wish I had your experience and background - it would make things much easier!