[Gunther]

Sodium lauryl sulfate shouldn’t be used in any leave-on applications. It is already too irritant in rinse off applications so imagine how harsh it would be at 20% in leave-ons.

So get rid of it and get a proper emulsifier to hold the oils and myristic acid.

[Gunther]

andriannav said:

Perry said:

What else is in the formula?

AQUA

Behetrimonium Chloride

Cetrimonium Chloride

Sodium Phytate

Betaine

Panthenol BABASU OIL

Cetearyl Alcohol

Dimethicone

Phenoxyethanol Cyclopentasiloxane Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein

Is that a rinse-off or a leave-on product?
If that’s a rinse off, then you can get rid of Sodium phytate, protein and panthenol as they’d just end up in the drain without doing anything noticeable to hair. Perhaps get rid of the basasu oil too.

If it’s a leave-on product, then get rid of betaine (Is that actually cocamido propyl betaine?) as its a surfactant, and surfactants aren’t meant for leave on products.
Get rid or sharply lower the protein as it doesn’t really do anything to hair and will leave a sticky feeling.

[Gunther]

Carbonate/bicarbonate don’t evaporate like water and alcohol do, so they will leave a white residue if the cleaner ain’t fully rinsed off.

If it’s for an application that can’t or won’t be fully rinsed off you can:
A. Remove them, and rise the pH with something else.
B. Replace them with a non water soluble abrasive (i.e. silica or Calcium salts), but you’ll need to make its viscosity is thick enough to avoid precipitation.
BTW Carbonate/bicarbonate don’t do much as abrasives if they are fully dissolved so removing them may be the best option.

[Gunther]

The simplest thing can be a quick wash or rinse with demineralized water.

Bacteria doesn’t feed on plastic (not for nothing bottles take decades to biodegrade).
The high injection blow molding process @chemicalmatt mentioned, degrades any bacteria there.

As for contaminants you’d need to define what do you want to avoid. Some plastic manufacturing uses nasty solvents and raw materials.
But testing is expensive, you’d need to hire a chromatography lab for that.

[Gunther]

1.2% BTMS is too little emulsifier for a whoping coconut 30% oil
10% Cetearyl alcohol is too much and needs extra emulsifier by itself.

What kind of guar? Anyhow, it’s likely it will leave a sticky afterfeel.
So does glycerin.

If it’s a for a spray-on hair conditioner you can try something like
BTMS 2%
non volatile Silicone 0.5%
Coconut oil 0.5%
fragrance qs
preservative qs
water qs

For a cream leave-on conditioner something like
BTMS 4 or 5%
non volatile silicone 0.5-1%
coconut oil 0.5-1%
cetyl alcohol probably around 2-3% as needed to thicken it
preservative qs
fragrance qs
water qs

You can add some cyclomethicone if you want, but there’s no need for macadamia oil, PEG-40 HCO, caprylic capric triglyerides, or IPM.

[Gunther]

UsmanAli said:

@Gunther
sir SLES 70% and i have used as supplied 
ok am going to remove CDEA
maybe when i have not use carbopol the temperature effect the thickness at 40 degree Celsius 
ok  am also going to remove glycerine 

If that’s 8% using a 70% active ingredient raw (i.e. Texapon N-70) that’s 5.6% net active SLES. That’s too little and that’s not going to thicken properly.

So you’d need something like 8% active SLES. You’d need 11.43% Texapon N-70 to get 8% net active SLES.

[Gunther]

Aziz said:

Gunther said:

SLS is added to improve SLES foam profile
https://www.happi.com/contents/view_features/2009-09-02/the-formulation-basics-for-personal-cleansers/

You can try a SLES only shampoo.
If irritation persists, then you can try a sulfate free shampoo.
If irritation still persists then you can try a cocamidopropyl betaine based very mild shampoo, or conditioner wash (co-wash).

In that case , how to thick a CAPB only shampoo ?

You’ll need a salt-resistant thickener
Something like Carbopol Ultrez, HEC, HPMC, xanthan gum  or combinations of the above.
Anyhow, you’d better start a new thread to ask that.

[Gunther]

Make sure it’s 8% active SLES, and not 8% as-supplied as SLES often comes in 70 and 30% active, never 100%

Use CAPB insted of coco betaine

Make sure active CAPB is a third (or more) of active SLES.

Make sure that CDEA is not leaving a sticky afterfeel.

Carbopol ain’t needed. You can thicken it with salt.
You need to make a salt curve to check the proper amount needed to thicken it. With CAPB and CDEA it should be less than 1% salt required.

Remove the glycerine. It does nothing and reduces foaming and viscosity.

A preservative is needed.

[Gunther]

SLS is added to improve SLES foam profile
https://www.happi.com/contents/view_features/2009-09-02/the-formulation-basics-for-personal-cleansers/

You can try a SLES only shampoo.
If irritation persists, then you can try a sulfate free shampoo.
If irritation still persists then you can try a cocamidopropyl betaine based very mild shampoo, or conditioner wash (co-wash).

[Gunther]

Anyone knows how much vacuum psi is required in the mixer?

[Gunther]

D4 is banned.
If I’m not mistaken, D5 is restricted only in some countries.
Thus D6 would be the best one, regarding worldwide regulations.

Now, regarding performance
the higher the cyclomethicone, the less volatile it becomes.
You’ll need to test your formula to see if D5+D6 or D6-only evaporates fast enough for your application.

[Gunther]

According to Dow,
You must first prepare a 2% solution by stirring for 45-60 minutes

In a separate vessel, prepare the 2% solution of UCARE™ Polymer by mixing the ingredients of Phase E (Polyquaternium 10) and stirring until a clear, homogenous, slightly viscous solution is obtained (45 – 60 minutes).

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_08d4/0901b803808d4a98.pdf?filepath=personalcare/pdfs/noreg/324-00452.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

(found in pages 4 and 5)

[Gunther]

Zaf said:

If I switch back to a magnesium sulfate, boost the levels maybe (to 10%) and with the addition of the MSM get a decent absorption? I’m not going for raising systemic magnesium levels (not that there’s anything bad about that - it’s certainly a bonus), but hoping to get it past the skin to the soft tissue… and with an emulsifier get it to not go gritty (or add just enough water to incorporate)? I kinda want the soft butter to remain the largest component. Too much water and it seems to break the moisture barrier.

Too much guesswork
You may wish to read the studies cited here
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5579607/
and fully replicate the formulations that have fairly good absorption, because not all do.
Don’t take the article as is, as it’s just a review article. Please read the studies cited there.

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

Definitely not rotten eggs. A repulsive harsh ‘chemical’ smell. It was so bad that they opened the door when were drying my hair. It’s a pity because the result was very impressive. But I would prefer not to risk again.

Did it smell like perm?
If so, then it was thioglycolate based.

[Gunther]

Please list and weigh ingredients in grams/milligrams as tablespoonfuls aren’t accurate.

AFAIK salts like Magnesium salts aren’t absorbed well by the skin.
So please look up for studies on its absorption (i.e. at Pubmed). If Mg salts aren’t well absorbed then you can sharply reduce its percentage, even as low as claim ingredient levels because it ain’t really doing anything useful in the formula.

[Gunther]

They are likely mistaken
there are several, different Dehyquart products

Dehyquart A-CA = Cetrimonium chloride
Dehyquart CC7 = Polyquaternium-7

Always ask for the Certificate of Analysis for that specific batch.

[Gunther]

If it’s a akylbenzene sulfonate formulation (neutralized LABSA), you can add it to concentrated sulfonate as it’s also a good emulsifier.

If it’s a milder, SLES based formula you may need an additional emulsifier like Polysorbate and/or PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil.

Dishwash bottles may inadvertently be left open, which causes to fragrance to evaporate.
Pulltop bottles often reduce fragrance evaporation as compared to fliptop ones, and there’s less risk of a spill if the bottle is accidentally tipped over.

[Gunther]

Gunther said:

This one felt nicely conditioning with mild cleaning as desired but it has almost no foam:

Phase A.
Water 60%
Polyquaternium 0.7%
Triethanolamine 0.05%
Heat and stir

Phase B
Add the following ingredients to Phase A in the listed order
EDTA Na-4 0.1%
Methylparaben 0.3%
Propylparaben 0.105%
BTMS-50 5%
CETAC solution 2%

Phase C
Laureth-9 (ethoxylated lauryl alcohol-9EO) 3%
Dimethicone 350  0.75%
Dow Amodimethicone 8087  0.75%
Premix and stir
Add phase C to A+B while heating and stirring

Dehyton-K  10% (3% active CAPB)
Protelan LS-9011 10% (3% active Na-lauroyl sarcosinate)
Cocamide DEA 1%
Cetearyl alcohol 4%
qs with water to compensate for water evaporation when heating
Fragance 0.4%

Phase D
Glycerin 1%
Polyox 0.1%
Premix, and add to the previous phases.

It looks like there are several things hindering foam

1. The surfactants are used at low levels and are mild.
3% active CAPB
3% active Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate
1% cocamide DEA
3% laureth-9
So I may try increasing them.

2. According to a study, 2% dimethicone (PDMS) hinders foaming to half, while amodimethicone (ADMS) only reduces it by about 10%
So I will try switching to 1.5% amodimethicone instead of 0.75% dimethicone, 0.75% amodimethicone.

3. Fatty alcohols reduce foaming.
I will try reducing that while still getting good viscosity and feel.
Will try switching to cetyl instead of cetearyl alcohol.

4. CETAC doesn’t seem to offer anything that BTMS doesn’t, and it’s supposed to reduce viscosity, potentially needing more foam reducing fatty alcohols to restore viscosity.
Although I didn’t notice 2% CETAC solution dropping viscosity too much. Not clearly visible to the naked eye.

5. I will try some Crothix thickener to reduce fatty alcohols usage.
Albeit I tried thickening it with Crothix before and it lead to a “watered-down” white, instead of a creamy white that fatty alcohols provide.

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

Thank you, @Perry. I like my very simple hair serum that is basically 20% dimethicone and 80% cyclopentasiloxane (I know it sounds a bit DIY-ish). My idea was to add some cationics in it. I know there is amodimethicone, but I only have access to the water soluble emulsion. I also have several polyquats but all of them are water soluble. I will reduce PQ-10. I didn’t realise that the fact I like 1% in my shampoo doesn’t mean it’s good amount for leave in product. I wonder whether you have seen w/si emulsions in hair products. Maybe I am overdoing it..

There is an old post of mine about some high-silicone BTMS emulsions
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4492/btms-50-to-silicones-ratio
You can also browse Croda’s website, but registration is needed.

[Gunther]

sven said:

@evelynquee see the attached formula from Croda and see how they have used the Na OH in their formula. Jut remember this type of formulas are some of the most dangerous stuff to work with as a cosmetic scientist. You will find that your liability insurance doubles in costs when you sell these type of products

Even for the strong formula in the Croda pdf
they list 9.50% but of a 25% NaOH solution, which equals 2.375% active NaOH
So OP 4% would be too harsh and damaging.

I agree that lye based relaxers are not meant for beginners.
If OP still wishes to pursue this, at least consider some less strong hydroxides, like Lithium or Calcium hydroxides used in some formulations because they are a bit more “forgiving” to concentration mismatches.

To direcly address OP questions
1. Parabens will work fine as preservatives but you’d better add them as their Sodium salts.
2. and 3. Pay an existing lab to conduct stability tests for you.
4. A separate, acidic neutralizer is crucial. You may consider adding some top-notch gloves in the package.
5. You’ll need to conduct lots of tests about application time, not too much that hair is damaged, not too little that hair ain’t properly relaxed.
Also, ask yourself how the saloon is going to mechanically straighten hair while the relaxer is applied. Relaxers don’t work by magic, they need some fixture to hold the hair straight while it is on the hair.

@ngarayeva001 lye based relaxers temporarily disrupt the hair sulfide bonds allowing it to be reshaped.
They aren’t keratin, albeit they work in a grossly similar way.
In fact, keratin is a misnomer to hide the fact that the nasty formaldehyde is the main ingredient.
As you probably know, formaldehyde causes cancer and it’s banned, so “keratin” treatments are only allowed in third world countries with weak governments.

[Gunther]

12% LABSA, 6% active SLES works fine (intended as a liquid laundry detergent)
it doesn’t cloud in the fridge at all, but you must add both some CAPB and NaCl ( <0.25% ) to thicken it.

I tried the same formula neutralizing it with KOH instead of NaOH and it became real cloudy. Cloudy even before all the LABSA was neutralized.
That was unexpected, as Potassium salts usually have better solubility than their Sodium counterparts.

Some 2.5% dipropylene glycol made it clear again, but it sharply reduces viscosity.

[Gunther]

You just don’t add 4% pH just like that
you need a target pH, otherwise it may end up dissolving people hair, and possibly damaging their scalp too.

Try to see if you can make a buffer solution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution
that keeps pH from fluctuating too much.

[Gunther]

Pharma said:

Smart people EAT it .

In cosmetics, biotin does nothing but boost the label. Since it is water soluble, using it in powdered form does fine.

I tried (eating) some supplement tabs.
They did nothing, so I don’t believe it will do anything noticeable in a cosmetic. 

[Gunther]

Natural waxes and gums are plant derived.
The challenge with the first ones will be emulsifying them (or making an anhydrous, oil based formulation)

The challenge with gums will be getting enough hold, but not too much so it can still be washed away.
Gums are hard to preserve too.

[Gunther]

gaurangwalunj said:

I am formulating a floor cleaner with following ingredients.
BK50- 2.45 % w/w
Lauryl alcohol ethoxylate-5%
CAPB- 0.5%
Sodium bicarbonate-5%
EDTA-0.2%

Above formulation gives good cleaning. But I just wanted to that whether sodium bicarbonate and LAE quantities are not in excess and whether it will be too harsh on skin.

Unless that’s a rinse off formulation, it is guaranteed to leave a white residue on floors.

While 5% lauryl alcohol ethoxylate will give a nice foam and cleaning, it may leave a residue if it’s not rinsed out off floors.

No need for CAPB

Na2CO3 will leave a white residue for sure.
You can even remove, or further reduce EDTA. Being a salt it will leave a white residue too.

What’s BK50?