[Gunther]

Glucosides move the SLES salt curve to the left, and lower peak viscosity (but who’s going to use 7% salt anyhow.

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=6P12tXK8JqQC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=“sodium+laureth+sulfate”+”betaine”+”glucoside”+viscosity&source=bl&ots=e2fiwlEWR8&sig=oJhcr8SvV6N5o172Psk2xLMCf2I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIwOHwv9bbAhURalAKHfGHC4E4HhDoAQhAMAU#v=onepage&q=”sodium%20laureth%20sulfate”%20″betaine”%20″glucoside”%20viscosity&f=true

[Gunther]

Plantapon 611 has Sodium Laureth Sulfate (and) Cocamidopropyl Betaine (and) Coco-Glucoside
https://www.carecreations.basf.com/product-formulations/products/products-detail/PLANTAPON%20611%20C/30531299
and reportedly, it can build a decent viscosity.

Too bad it’s unavailable here, so I’ll have to mix them myself.
Decyl glucoside may yield better results too.

This paper gives some interesting anionic+glucoside formulations. I may try those without Xanthan gum.
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_08d4/0901b803808d4a98.pdf?filepath=personalcare/pdfs/noreg/324-00452.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

I’ve tried this formula, and it has some viscosity, not totally water-thin

60% deionized water
0.1% EDTA Na-4
0.4% Sodium benzoate
1.5% SLS powder (1.5% active SLS)
5% Texapon N70 gel (3.5% active SLES)
16.7% Dehyton K (5% active CAPB)
10% Bcare 2000 (about 5% active Decyl Glucoside)
citric acid qs to pH 5
water qs to 100%
Salt didn’t seem to further thicken it.

It felt GREAT, not too degreasing, great flash and cream foam, smooth.
So I’m willing to tweak it to make it thicker.

In contrast to this one being water-thin
80% deionized water
0.1% EDTA Na-4
0.4$ Sodium benzoate
1% SLS powder ( 1% active SLS )
4.28% Texapon N70 gel (3% active SLES )
8% Bcare 2000 ( about 4% active Decyl Glucoside )
10% Dehyton K ( 3% active CAPB )
citric acid qs to pH 5
water qs to 100%.

[Gunther]

Yeah, they spin too fast = foam
and won’t touch the vessel edges = unmixed spots

I once saw a small company in Central America (Latin America)
that made and sold their own mixers
they rotated really slow (IDK if their motors spin that slow by themselves, or if they have reducing gears in the housing)
with some holders for flexible paddles that slightly rubbed the vessel edges.

They made all that themselves out of stainless steel, and the paddle edges were replaceable and probably made out of silicone. 
I wonder if they designed it themselves or if it was a copy of an existing design.

I was totally astonished by it.
I wonder if they’re still in business (that was ages ago)
Anyhow, it shouldn’t be hard for a metal working shop to replicate.
Slow rotation is the key.

The spinner was something roughly similar to this:

only with bolted soft paddle edges, and the rods were longer, to match the vessel size.

[Gunther]

How about using BTMS?
It both emulsifies silicones and makes it thicker.

It the product will be used with (heated) iron flats
you may wish to ask yourself if you want water on it, as it gives off lots of steam when heated.
Some iron-flat formulations use silicone only, to avoid steam.

[Gunther]

Pretty much a variation of what @Belassi suggested:

A 50/60 ml syringe
saw the luer-lock connector off
drill a larger exit hole
make a suitable stands that holds it upright
place a weight to push the plunger down
Take the time it takes for toothpaste to be pushed out.

[Gunther]

These patents mention glucosides lowering viscosity

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4732696A/en

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5242615A/en

[Gunther]

Do MOST customers really know what sulfates are?
Or just the few, loud complainers?

Related: Most customers don’t know what Parabens are.
https://chemistscorner.com/do-consumers-think-about-parabens-in-cosmetics/

You can sell low-sulfate as ‘the best of both worlds’, ‘the fine balance between mildness and an underwashed, oily, SMELLY hair’, ‘you’ll get accustomed to a slightly smelly hair, but those around you will notice it’…
The ‘smelly’ word sells = fear marketing. 
https://chemistscorner.com/5-reasons-sulfate-free-products-exist/

You can increase mildness by adding Cocamidopropyl Betaine to match total sulfates (limited to about 5% as to avoid excess viscosity), then add another surfactant to improve foaming a bit.
(NOT glucosides as they kill sulfates viscosity)
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4338/any-ideas-for-making-liquid-soap-really-water-thin-so-its-suitable-for-foamer-bottles

[Gunther]

Thanks for the suggestion @em88 a dust mark or preferably a woodworking respirator is definitely needed when working with SLS powder.
I use the powder as I’m leaving room for natural watery extracts, on customer’s request.

It looks like the easiest way to drop sulfate formulations viscosity is to add a glucoside, it immediately kills viscosity.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4398/adding-glucosides-makes-sulfate-formulations-thinner

[Gunther]

Adding Decyl glucoside to a previously made too-thick formulation
2.25% SLS
5.25 active SLES
6% active CAPB
immediately thins it out, almost becomes water-thin.

This books shows that glucosides lower viscosity, unless glucosides comprise 60% of the surfactant mixture, or sorbitol hexastearate are added, and even so the viscosity builds up and lowers sharply (hit or miss)
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=bgRC9L3L5M0C&pg=PA442&lpg=PA442&dq=decyl+glucoside+reduce+viscosity&source=bl&ots=glcTyHLqey&sig=95mgB5XuKF-6Me5iMs1Gf_jdzrI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhz-ilrdPbAhUCORQKHWQTBsw4ChDoAQg9MAE#v=onepage&q=decyl%20glucoside%20reduce%20viscosity&f=true

So Glucosides don’t seem compatible with anionics, unless you’re looking for intentionally water-thin formulations, i.e. for foamer bottles.

[Gunther]

@MZH consider yourself lucky if you can get that done for less than $10,000

Not only the lab will need GC-MS to identify the ingredients (with a large library to match results)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography–mass_spectrometry

They’ll also need HPLC to accurately quantify the chemicals found.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-performance_liquid_chromatography
They’ll need to order reference standards, find a suitable method or devise one themselves, make calibration curves, repeat 6+ times to ensure repeatability, and so on.

You’d get better results asking the FDA (or similar office in your country) about product registration forms, listing the ingredients.
Beware of patents.

[Gunther]

How much does product liability insurance typically costs and how much can it cover?

[Gunther]

Decyl Glucoside seems to thin out an otherwise identical low sulfate formula:

60% deionized water
0.1% EDTA Na-4
0.4% Sodium Benzoate
1.5% SLS powder
5% Texapon N70 (3.5% active SLES) = (5% total active sulfates 1.5% SLS + 3.5% SLES)
10% Bcare 2000 (about 5% active Decyl Glucoside)
16.7% Dehyton K (5% active CAPB)

Next time I will try adding CAPB before Decyl Glucoside
to check its prior viscosity
but so far it looks like glucosides do thin low sulfate formulas.

[Gunther]

Not bad.
Interestingly enough, the previous formula with 5% PQ-7 was less eye irritating.
But maybe just because it had very low sulfate content, 
I may try that formula again, with some other non-thickening surfactant to add some extra foam.

[Gunther]

Thanks.

[Gunther]

Update:

PEG-7 GC (Cetiol HE) and Cocamide DEA leave a sticky feel that seems to remain for days.
C-DEA further thickens it, so they’re totally gone for good.

So far,
this formula seems to work great

70% deionized water
0.1% EDTA Na-4
0.5% Sodium Benzoate
1% SLS powder
4.29% Texapon N70 (3% active SLES)
10% Dehyton K (3% active CAPB)
10% Bcare 2000 (about 5% active Decyl Glucoside)
qs to 100% water
qs to pH 5 (it takes about 0.5g citric acid to lower pH)

Adding Decyl Glucoside adds great flash foam, taking advantage of the foamer bottle, while still keeping it water-thin.

[Gunther]

Update:

Got a stable formulation:

60% deionized water

0.1% EDTA Na-4

0.5% Sodium Benzoate

7% Texapon N70 (4.9 active SLES)

2.1% SLS powder

5% Erythritol

7% Dehyton K (2.33% active CAPB)

At this point CAPB thickens it a bit.

2% Polyquaternium-7

It becomes thicker, allow to settle overnight, it thins out a bit.

0.5% Cetiol HE

IDK if this is actually making any difference

2% Dehyquart A, CETAC

Right after stirring it becomes whitish, thicker, and a bit slimy. 

It thins, clears and smooths out by leaving it undisturbed overnight.

It leaves a totally usable, mostly clear product.

It ain’t as conditioning as my previous formula. I wonder if lowering PQ-7 from 5 to 2% had such a noticeable effect.

[Gunther]

Did you use coffee in any leave-on products?
Did it (temporarily) stain the skin or hair?

I thought customers liked the coffee smell as is.

[Gunther]

There are several types of irritation studies:

1 Patch testing. They place several dilutions under adhesive tape on the skin. Leave for 6-24 hours and see which ones caused allergic reactions from redness to blisters.
They may give a false positive for rinseoff products, which won’t cause much irritation if quickly and completely rinsed off.
It ain’t that expensive or complicated, but at least hire a pro to apply it and check the results.

2 Normal use testing. They ask volunteers to use the product as intended. They then check for redness or irritation.
Not too expensive or complicated but usually requires more paid volunteers than #1.

3 Cell culture testing. Expensive, complicated and may be unrelated to real world use.

You can provide them some info from the separate ingredients, and extrapolate to the finished product.
If the client pays for it, you can arrange some patch testing. Just warn them that even incomplete rinsing ain’t as bad as reactions behind an occluded patch.

[Gunther]

IMO SLES and CAPB may be too foaming for clothes washing, especially for machine washers which may not fully rinse all foam out.

You can try some extra chelator (EDTA if you can use it), Sodium citrate or citric acid, than in personal cleaners.

You may wish to add a sulfonate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkylbenzene_sulfonates
If you do it yourself neutralizing a sulfonic acid, Potassium hydroxide yields better results than Sodium hydroxide does. Be careful and wear protective gear. Be especially careful when diluting Potassium hydroxide, it heats itself.

You can try Sodium Lauryl Sulfate instead or besides SLS, for better cleaning.

https://www.happi.com/contents/view_features/2012-04-02/formulating-liquid-laundry-detergents

[Gunther]

https://www.pharmacompass.com/manufacturers-suppliers-exporters/aluminium-chlorohydrate

https://www.pharmacompass.com/active-pharmaceutical-ingredients/aluminium-chlorohydrate

[Gunther]

A simple, yet effective suggested recipe:

A low-sulfate, about 4-5% total (SLS+SLES)

 4-5% active CAPB, equal amount to total sulfates.
It feels really mild, and a bit conditioning to the skin, without leaving an oily or greasy residue (I’m biased against PEG-7 Glyceryl cocoate, alkanolamides (Cocamide, Lauramide, Oleamide), or Glyceryl oleate)

High CAPB seems to leave a smooth, almost talc-like feeling.

Some other non-thickening surfactant to provide some extra foaming.
I see you avoid glucosides, but IMO they ain’t that bad, especially when combined with low-sulfate, high CAPB.

[Gunther]

Even if “just” 0.001% of customers sue
and “just” 0.00001% win the lawsuit, you’re ruined.

So even if you’re not making high-risk cosmetics:
you can add a disclaimer like:
‘test in a small area for 48 hours before use, if irritation’ happens, do not use’
  
You can get plenty of disclaimer ideas from commercial hair dyes.
At the end, the disclaimer just takes some extra time when designing your labels, and no extra cost.

[Gunther]

Is yours a white paste?
How easily does it disperses? Does it initially forms white clumps.

It was supposed to be Euperlan PK771 Benz
but packaged for retail, so IDK if that was real BASF, or copycat chinese.
I’m glad I didn’t buy the whole drum, because this is the second pearlizer I tried that doesn’t seem to work fine.

Does yours says BENZ too?
I believe I got the 90s Ford Taurus version instead. All with its transmission problems, lol.
Again, thanks for your reply.

[Gunther]

I even tried making brewing soap and shampoo with dark coffee instead of water
and some swirls from Euperlan PK 771 remain, and it made the product lighter.

@Belassi did you mix Euperlan with some solubilizer or something?
Do you add it at the end, cold or hot?
Thanks in advance.

[Gunther]

IMO concentrated washes can lead to problems
customers can blame the product instead of their faulty dilution.

Did coffee reduce foaming, at least a bit?