Gunther
Forum Replies Created
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I wonder if Polysorbate 60 and sorbitan stearate help dissolving palmitoylethanolamide, in this formulation
https://vitalitus.com/product/soothamide/ -
Maybe Carbopol Ultrez 20 or 21 tolerates more electrolytes (from CAPB) than regular carbopol does?
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CAPB+glucoside might be too mild for dishwash, it may not cut grease well.
Xanthan gum may leave a sticky feel.IMO a shampoo formulation will work fine as a non irritating hand dishwash
SLES + CAPB + alkanolamide + salt to thicken it + preservative -
ngarayeva001 said:@Gunther, the only way I found to thicken this formula was xantham. Crothix doesn’t work for such formulas. I tried PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate but didn’t notice much difference. So, I use it in a foaming bottle.
Have you tried Carbopol?
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Parabens used below the EU limits
<0.4% methylparaben
<0.14% propylparaben
Almost guaranteed to work, even if they leave the bottle open and some rotten food particles get into it. -
For truly organic (well, organic-derived)
you can only use vegetable oils from plants that weren’t treated with pesticides or fed synthetic fertilizers.
Then you can saponify oils with NaOH or KOH.You can look for ready made enzymes and see if they have an organic certification.
At least if the fruits do, they use chemicals to extract the enzymes.CAPB and glucosides ain’t organic.
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ngarayeva001 said:I actually think that 70% will work. Try to get both decyl glucoside and coco glucoside. The bad thing about decyl, it makes the product thinner. This combination should be tear-free
May I ask how did you thicken it?
I tried HEC for this formulation and it didn’t work
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/5257/hec-thick-layer-separating#latest -
chemicalmatt said:SLES-2 or SLES-3 both have milder irritancy profiles than SLS. Reverse the ratio. Adding CAPB will help mollify too: good idea. Should thicken up your solution also, if that is OK.
Thanks.
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Saponification only happens when you start out with oils or fats (usually glycerides or triglycerides) you need a strong base for saponification like NaOH or KOH.
If you start with the free fatty acids you only need a mild base for neutralization
besides NaOH or KOH you can use their carbonates, TEA or ammonium carbonate. -
Microformulation said:I love when people use “And” although by common standards it is usually left out. To whit, I will put forth that you usually see these less than accurate Ingredient Declarations from smaller lines without a Regulatory Department. Not a lot of “and” in big line INCI Decks.Here is my theory and the use of “and” has a great deal benefit if you use “and” in your list and then I am asked to knock-off your product. The lines that I see using this are cutting and pasting the INCI names.For example, Chamomile in Sunflower Oil (Biobotanica) has a listed INCI as “Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower (and) Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil.” List it with the “and” makes it clear that you used this product.Another issue I see with these lines without proper oversight is that they do not reference Ingredient Breakdowns (such as 90% Sunflower and 10% Chamomile in this case for example). Let’s say that you used 3% of this extract. You MUST break-up the components as the Sunflower oil will be declared at 2.7% and the Chamomile would be below the 1% line. As such, using the “and” (pasting the combined ingredients at the 3% line) is inaccurate. I see this error in some emerging lines several times a week.In my opinion, leave out the “and.” It makes it easier for me to knock-off (Thank you), I have never seen a Regulatory Department approve it and it is likely going to lead to an inaccurate ingredient declaration.
What if you use a preblend and the manufacturer won’t tell you the composition since it’s a trade secret, you only know the total active % (sum of all ingredients in the preblend)?
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What’s the formula like?
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And Google why most OTC sports ointments and wart removal creams withdrawn salicylic acid and its derivatives from their formulas.
There’s even a Wikipedia entry for it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylate_sensitivity -
The recommended use level of folic acid is 0.05%-0.2%. For intensive treatment up to 0.5% could be used.
https://www.personalcaremagazine.com/story/5247/formulating-anti-ageing-products-with-folic-acid -
Folic Acid: Cellular Uptake and Penetration into Human Skin
full text here
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232803582_Folic_Acid_Cellular_Uptake_and_Penetration_into_Human_SkinAll 4 researchers work for Beiersdorf AG so there’s a chance of conflict of interest.
Human fibroblasts culture absorbed folic acid
so did a 0.03% folic acid cream used by human volunteers.
BTW I wonder why they use such a tiny amount. -
In this one they tested folic acid and creatine too
no full textA novel treatment option for photoaged skin.
Knott A1, Koop U, Mielke H, Reuschlein K, Peters N, Muhr GM, Lenz H, Wensorra U, Jaspers S, Kolbe L, Raschke T, Stäb F, Wenck H, Gallinat S.Author information1Research & Development, Beiersdorf AG, Hamburg, Germany.AbstractBACKGROUND:DNA damage as a result of ultraviolet (UV) exposure plays an important role in the progression of cutaneous aging. Both folic acid and creatine have been linked to the process of DNA protection and repair.AIMS:This study aims to investigate the effects of a commercially available folic acid- and creatine-containing formulation to fight the clinical signs of premature skin aging.PATIENTS/METHODS:Both in vitro and in vivo home-in-use studies using a folic acid- and creatine-containing formulation were performed aiming to elucidate the efficacy in terms of improvement of skin regeneration, protection from UV-induced DNA damage (Comet assay), reduction of wrinkle volume, and skin visco-elasticity. Furthermore, clinical evaluation and photography were carried out to determine the improvement of clinically graded parameters after treatment.RESULTS:Cultured full-thickness epidermal skin models supplemented with folic acid and creatine after epithelial perturbation showed an accelerated skin regeneration compared to untreated control models. Similarly, application of a folic acid- and creatine-containing formulation significantly improved epidermal turnover in vivo as evidenced by smaller corneocytes derived from the treated sites relative to the vehicle-treated sides. In addition, topical in vivo application of this formulation significantly protected from UV-induced DNA lesions, increased skin firmness, and reduced wrinkle volume compared to untreated control areas. Expert grading confirmed a significant decrease of fine and coarse wrinkles in the periocular region as well as overall wrinkles, tactile roughness, and laxity.CONCLUSIONS:Taken together, these results show that the combination of folic acid and creatine significantly accelerates epidermal skin regeneration in vitro and in vivo. Together with the finding of improved biomechanical skin properties, we conclude that the described topical formulation provides an effective treatment option for (photo)-aged skin. -
I haven’t found the full study text yet (for free)
Dermal penetration of creatine from a face-care formulation containing creatine, guarana and glycerol is linked to effective antiwrinkle and antisagging efficacy in male subjects.
Peirano RI1, Achterberg V, Düsing HJ, Akhiani M, Koop U, Jaspers S, Krüger A, Schwengler H, Hamann T, Wenck H, Stäb F, Gallinat S, Blatt T.Author information
1Department of Skin Biology and Skin Structure, Beiersdorf AG Research and Development, Unnastrasse 48, Hamburg, Germany.Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The dermal extracellular matrix provides stability and structure to the skin. With increasing age, however, its major component collagen is subject to degeneration, resulting in a gradual decline in skin elasticity and progression of wrinkle formation. Previous studies suggest that the reduction in cellular energy contributes to the diminished synthesis of cutaneous collagen during aging.
AIMS:
To investigate the potential of topically applied creatine to improve the clinical signs of skin aging by stimulating dermal collagen synthesis in vitro and in vivo.
PATIENTS/METHODS:
Penetration experiments were performed with a pig skin ex vivo model. Effects of creatine on dermal collagen gene expression and procollagen synthesis were studied in vitro using cultured fibroblast-populated collagen gels. In a single-center, controlled study, 43 male Caucasians applied a face-care formulation containing creatine, guarana extract, and glycerol to determine its influence on facial topometric features.
RESULTS:
Cultured human dermal fibroblasts supplemented with creatine displayed a stimulation of collagen synthesis relative to untreated control cells both on the gene expression and at the protein level. In skin penetration experiments, topically applied creatine rapidly reached the dermis. In addition, topical in vivo application of a creatine-containing formulation for 6 weeks significantly reduced the sagging cheek intensity in the jowl area as compared to baseline. This result was confirmed by clinical live scoring, which also demonstrated a significant reduction in crow’s feet wrinkles and wrinkles under the eyes.
CONCLUSIONS:
In summary, creatine represents a beneficial active ingredient for topical use in the prevention and treatment of human skin aging.
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Folic acid and creatine improve the firmness of human skin in vivo
Frank Fischer PhD Volker Achterberg PhD Annette März PhD Stefan Puschmann BE Christian‐Dennis Rahn PhD Vivien Lutz MSc Andrea Krüger Laboratory Technician Helge Schwengler Laboratory Technician Sören Jaspers Graduate Engineer of Medical Technology Urte Koop Graduate Engineer of Medical Technology Thomas Blatt PhD Horst Wenck PhD Stefan Gallinat PhDFirst published: 21 February 2011Volker Achterberg, Beiersdorf AG, Research & Development, Department of Skin Biology & Skin Structure, Bf. 510, Unnastrasse 48, 20245 Hamburg, Germany. E‐mail: volker.achterberg@beiersdorf.comRead the full textAboutSummaryBackground The decrease in firmness is a hallmark of skin aging. Accelerated by chronic sun exposure, fundamental changes occur within the dermal extracellular matrix over the years, mainly impairing the collagenous network.Aims Based on the qualitative and quantitative assessment of skin firmness, in vitro and in vivo studies were carried out to elucidate the effects of topical folic acid and creatine to counteract this age‐dependent reduction in the amount of collagen.Patients/Methods Topical application of a commercially available formulation containing folic acid and creatine was performed to study effects on skin firmness in vivo using cutometric analysis. Imaging and quantification of collagen density were carried out using multiphoton laser scanning microscopy (MPLSM). To investigate the effects of these compounds on collagen gene expression, procollagen synthesis, and collagen fibril organization, complementary in vitro studies on cultured fibroblast‐populated collagen gels were carried out.Results The underlying structural changes in the collagen network of young and aged sun‐exposed facial skin in vivo were visualized by MPLSM. Topical application of a folic acid‐ and creatine‐containing formulation significantly improved firmness of mature skin in vivo. Treatment of fibroblast‐populated dermal equivalents with folic acid and creatine increased collagen gene expression and procollagen levels and improved collagen fiber density, suggesting that the in vivo effects are based on the overall improvement of the collagen metabolism.Conclusions Employing MPLSM, dermal changes occurring in photo‐aged human skin were visualized in an unprecedented manner and correlated to a loss of firmness. Treatment of aged skin with a topical formulation containing folic acid and creatine counteracted this age‐dependent decline by exerting sustained effects on collagen metabolism. Our results support previous findings on the efficacy of these actives.https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1473-2165.2010.00543.x
Full text here:…15 volunteers, 5 in each group……Skin elasticity wasdetermined on the inside of the volunteers forearmsusing a Cutometer SM 575 (Courage and Khazaka, Ko¨ln,Germany) and the elastic parameter UrUe as a measureof skin firmness according to the European Group onEfficacy Measurement of Cosmetics and other topicalProducts guidance…… The test formulation used in all studies was the commercially available Nivea Visage DNAge (Beiersdorf AG, Hamburg, Germany) containing folic acid and creatine…
… 7 days washoff, then visits at baseline, 2 and 5 weeks…
… Two and 5 weeks of treat-ment resulted in a significant increase in Ur ⁄Ue valuesto 107.5 ± 11.5% (n = 35; P = 0.0002) and 106.9 ±10.5% (n = 36; P= 0.0002), respectively… -
Solubility drops on cooling and insoluble matter initially shows as cloudiness.
So yes, it looks like you have reached your cloud point.
You’ll need to dilute your formula, first by 25%, then 50% and so on until it no longer becomes cloudy on cooling.
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That’s actually a good formulation @ggpetrov even if you don’t want to work as a cosmetic chemist, you may sell your creams.
Have you tried a similar formulation with stearic acid instead of behenyl alcohol?
I always wondered if longer chain fatty alcohols aren’t preferable to fatty acids.
https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/research/chemistry/97861099.html -
As for cloud point,
you can check this post of mine where I had trouble getting past 15% LABSA in dishwash
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4804/should-i-dilute-sulfonic-acid-before-neutralizing-it-with-sodium-hydroxide#latestCloudiness usually means it ain’t properly dissolved
I believe propylene glycol and ethanol may work as solvents, increasing solubility for a more concentrated product.
Propylene glycol usually decreases solubility. -
David08848 said:I have been looking for this for ages and somehow I found a link to be able to download Harry’s Cosmeticology Version 7 which I thought I would share with you all! Enjoy!
Site seem to be down, or the link is dead
Would you mind reposting? -
chemicalmatt said:More to the point, even before Gunther weighed in, I wondered how did you get around that Henkel patent? I am curious about that. Oh and yeah, drop the behenyl quat for sure.
I actually wondered what’s so new about that patent?
Hasn’t Sodium glyoxylate used before for hair straightening? -
Is that a rinse off cleanser?
Because if it is, salycilic acid won’t do much in the short time it is on the skin.If it’s wipe clean formulation, some may be left on the skin
and you need to make sure that salycilic acid doesn’t crystallize and polysorbate doesn’t leave a sticky afterfeel. -
You need to conduct a test with no fragrance to make sure it’s the fragrance that’s causing itchiness.
Preferably, a blind test where test subjects don’t know what formulation they’re testing. -
I think you can first react glyoxylic acid with an alkaline base like Sodium or Potassium hydroxide to make a glyoxylate salt. That should prevent it from reacting with BTMS.
It looks like glyoxylate salts retain their hair straightening activity.
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015086230A1/en