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Have you tried to dissolve menthol in a polar oil, e.g. caprylic/capric triglyceride?

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Perry said:

I don’t have an answer for you beyond calling more companies to find someone to work with.

I agree. 

I think there is no problem for them with the cost of your ingredients and packaging if you supply them yourself. Maybe the problem is that you already have the formula? They will be responsible for whether they can make your cream successfully, they will probably have to test your formulation first. In general, it seems to me that they will have to complete a series of one-time activities that will not take less time than a larger order.

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@Abdullah, yes, now I’m looking something above 1800 kDa. The highest molecular weight I found is over 2000.
@Paprik Yes, you are right, I wanted to take pictures of what viscosity I want to get, but the pictures were bad. Basically, I can accept a wide range of viscosity, that’s a secondary issue. The problem is that even when the product is a bit thin, it still causes a tight feeling. It leaves a very slight film on the face. Other products leave a more perceptible film, they are more thick, and this feeling of tightness is almost imperceptible.
@Rockstargirl Thank you very much for the photos. Have you tried 1% HMW on your face?

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@Perry Yes, recently I also had thoughts that there are a lot of such products and sellers in the US, because they have many customers and people are willing to buy these handcrafts, even if they can buy such a product in a store at a similar price. After all, in the EU you can also easily buy cosmetics ingredients and make them yourself, so it doesn’t make much difference whether you buy the ingredients and make the product yourself at home, or buy a product made at home by someone else.

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@PhilGeis, @MarkBroussard, thank you for your input. I did a knock-out experiment. Triple dose extracts - no irritation. Euxyl Pe 9010 - I made a 1% solution, after applying no irritation. In short intervals, I applied it two more times, after the second very minimal signs of irritation.
Propanediol - I started with 20%, I thought that if there are no problems at this concentration, then it will mean that the problem is for sure not with this ingredient. A slight redness appeared at this concentration. What’s more, after a short time, something like an acne spot appeared on the face. The next day I tried to lower the concentrations and the situation was similar (again - acne spot). At 2%, no problems.
I don’t know if this experiment was really well done. I was doing it for a few days, but maybe after the first time the irritation didn’t completely disappear and it had some impact.

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@jemolian, there seem to be differences in determining whether a substance is readily biodegradable or inherently ultimate biodegradable. To determine inherent biodegradability substance-biomass ratio is low and prolonged exposure of the substance to microorganisms are allowed, so the conditions are more favorable, but it actually means that these ingredients are biodegradable.

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Abdullah said:

I want to make a 2% salicylic acid cleanser with 4% SLES+ 1% CAPB at pH ~5. 

My question is: is salicylic acid at pH 5 in a cleanser always in salt form no matter what or there is some way to make it be at acid form? 

If you convert salicylic acid to salt, then you can lower the ph even below 4. Just like with Sodium Dehydroacetate or Anisic Acid. Dehydroacetic acid is not water soluble, but if you raise the pH to convert it to salt, then it becomes water soluble, and you can lower the pH to liberate the acid. Sodium salicylate is no longer oil soluble, so it doesn’t penetrate the pores as well as salicylic acid does. It should still have anti-acne and anti-inflammatory properties, but I don’t know if it is as good as salicylic acid.

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No, I’m still thinking 20% propanediol is the problem, but you need it to dissolve the ferulic acid. As far as I know, Ethyl Ferulate has only two manufacturers:
https://www.gfn-selco.de/en/productsearch/ethyl-ferulate-cos
https://www.gfn-selco.de/en/products/products-a_z/ethyl-ferulate-natural
You can try also ethyl ferulate already dissolved in sunflower oil:
https://www.rahn-group.com/en/cosmetics/product/9/

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jemolian said:

From what i’ve seen when comparing the SDS, Sepinov & Sepimax seems to have a higher biodegradability percentage. Is there a particular reason why that could be the case compared to the others? 

• Sepinov - 93 % - Inherent - 28 days
• Sepimax - 79 % - Inherent - 28 days

I found SDS of Sepinov EMT 10 and Sepimax Zen and both stated that they are not readily biodegradable. 
https://www.biohope.com.cn/vancheerfile/files/profile/2017072017273994.pdf
https://www.biohope.com.cn/vancheerfile/files/profile/2017072017270193.pdf
But here is the information that Sepinov EMT 10 is inherently ultimate biodegradable. What does it mean?
https://www.seppic.com/sites/seppic/files/2022/02/22/EU07241A-GB.pdf

@Perry Your explanation is much clearer. As for carbomer, the manufacturer seems to have checked the biodegradability issues. When it comes to assessing biodegradability, we have at least the methodology, time frame and value. But when it comes to degradability, it is hard to find the specific conditions and the time it takes for a substance to degrade.
And I have another question. If the product contains not readily biodegradable ingredients, can it be said that the product is biodegradable? Biodegradability tests of the entire formula are not carried out, because for example product may contain 70% water, therefore tests are performed on individual components. I think about it because it turns out that all the formulas are suddenly “biodegradable”.

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Maybe you could try Ethyl Ferulate (ferulic acid ester) instead of ferulic acid? In emulsions according to the manufacturer you can use it at 2%. Even if it is optimistic, 0.2% should not be a problem.

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I was referring to this polymer and SDS: https://lotioncrafter.com/products/aristoflex-avc?_pos=1&_sid=a068d4635&_ss=r
I also found this document: https://www.lubrizol.com/-/media/Lubrizol/Health/Literature/Bulletin-02—Toxicology-Studies-and-Regulatory-Information.pdf
According to the document, it has been found that carbomer is not biodegradable, rather not readily degradable (I don’t quite understand this part), but it can be disposed or incinerated in wastewater treatment facility.

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PROPANEDIOL 20 - I think this amount of propanediol can lower the viscosity of your formula and possibly contribute to its destabilization.
What benefits do you expect from ferulic acid? If you want to improve vitamin C stability, I don’t think it is necessary in this case because you are using a stable form of vitamin C.

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Is your formula fast absorbing? I think the addition of wax or synthetic polymers could help. The polymers are not greasy and form a “film” on the skin, so you should not feel dry after applying them.
Some people experience irritation after using niacinamide.

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I’m curious about their biodegradability. Which of them are easily biodegradable? It’s usually mentioned in SDS that they are not readily biodegradable, for example:
Result: Not readily biodegradable. Biodegradation: 7% Exposure time: 28 d

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https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Temporal-changes-of-color-in-Maillard-reaction-systems-containing-30mol-kg-d-ribose_fig4_320289745

They used ribose with lysine. Did you get a similar color?

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Based on my poor knowledge - sorbic acid at this pH is not helpful. Even in marketing brochures, Phenoxyethanol with Ethylhexylglycerin is weak against A. niger at 1%. Phenoxyethanol alone is insufficient. I don’t think Phenoxyethanol with Caprylyl Glycol could be much better. Maybe add Chlorphenesin? It can be used up to pH 8 and it’s soluble in warm water. But it would be better if some expert like Phil could comment.

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Maybe the problem is with Euxyl pe 9010 at 1%? It’s rarely used in face toners. The other ingredients are mainly sodium hyaluronate in a small amount, chlorphenesin and some extracts. Could pH make a difference? It’s around 4.5, so it’s not low, but I have no idea what might be causing these problems. It’s not a big irritation, slight redness and it disappears after a while.

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The average business in the US, even a small one but run by a professional, likely follows GMP even when not imposed on them, so this new regulation to me is not good.
But handcrafts scare me. Besides the usual things like creams or oils, they sell really strange products like Vagina Tightener. Or super strong peels - people can get scarring from it, the problem is not only potential contamination. As for contamination, I don’t know if it is even possible to measure how many people have been harmed. Contamination can develop over time and the person using the product may not associate the symptoms with the product he/she has been using for a month. But even if it’s a small number, it’s still not worth changing?

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@PhilGeis It is still not comparable to handcrafts (made at home, without PAO or anything) like: 5% salicylic acid peeling, pseudo-medical creams against eczema, neuropathy creams, intimate area lightening creams, and much more. These products have hundreds or thousands of sales. Sellers have statements under products that they are not responsible for anything. 
The statistics cannot be compared in this case, because the scale of unregistered products described above in the US is much bigger.

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@PhilGeis I wrote about a case where the company doesn’t use any preservatives at all. If retailers have a “clean” policy (it doesn’t mean they only sell such products), then these products cannot contain certain ingredients from the list (only if company wants this label). Triclosan, formaldehyde donors and parabens are usually listed in these prohibited ingredients, which means they can use other preservatives - Phenoxyethanol, Chlorphenesin, Disodium Edta and the rest. If a company doesn’t use preservatives, even though retailers allow them to be used even if you want to be “clean”, then that is a choice of that company, not the retailer.

As for GMP, while preparing the safety report, you must specify the production location and confirm the use of GMP. Premises are registered and controlled. Just because these rules exist, it doesn’t mean that everyone follows them, but if someone doesn’t need to register their business, produces cosmetics in the bathroom, doesn’t test their mass for microbiological purity after production, and doesn’t have to expect any inspection, the probability that they will sell a contaminated product is bigger.

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You mean rinse-off hair masks? It’s definitely easier to spread them on wet hair, and you have to rinse them anyway, so it’s better to do it after washing your hair instead of before.

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I believe that the US cosmetic industry needs more regulation. I’m always shocked reading how some people don’t do any tests or carry out stability tests while keeping the product in the car, and at the same time I get mad when I read that small companies don’t test their products, where small companies in Europe do tests, and the lack of tests is a typical problem for small businesses in the US. But articles about how small businesses are not safe come out globally and also affect customers in Europe who are becoming wary of smaller businesses.
The main problem is that anyone in the US can sell their cosmetics. If I want to sell cosmetics in Europe, I have to register the product with the safety report. As far as I know, registration in the US is not obligatory. To register a product in Europe, I need a safety report made by an authorized person. I cannot make such a report myself if I don’t have the appropriate education and qualifications. Such a person has no interest in confirming the safety of not tested product. Stability test and challenge test are mandatory.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02009R1223-20190813&from=EN

Clear rules that must be followed are crucial - if you know that you need to perform stability tests, challenge tests, confirm substance limits, no animal testing, everything is simpler and there is no room for interpretation.

I don’t think retailers are the reason for the lack of tests and preservatives. Even retailers that have the clean categories allow the use of phenoxyethanol and many other preservatives, mainly parabens and formaldehyde donors are not allowed. 
The customers are definitely not guilty. When they see that many companies don’t use preservatives, and such products are sold in large retailers, they begin to believe that preservatives are not needed. I remember a sentence from one customer review of such a product, “They don’t use unnecessary preservatives”.
In Europe, I have never heard of a case of someone selling untested home-made products. There are no platforms designed for this purpose. Probably someone tried to do it, but surely the number of such cases is much smaller.

List of the banned substances don’t make a big difference, because they are not used anyway, but some substances have additional requirements, e.g. “Petrolatum, except if the full refining history is known

and it can be shown that the substance from which it is

produced is not a carcinogen.” I’m not sure if there is such an official requirement in the US. It’s definitely part of the “clean categories” of retailers. 

In general, I think clean categories come from these vague regulations. If a retailer has clean categories in the US, the same one in Europe has categories with products of natural origin or with eco-friendly packaging. No “free of”.
In the US, I also see some inaccuracies, as in the case of the use of salicylic acid in cosmetics. Apparently it cannot be used, but it is used.

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If  Phenoxy/EHG are used at 1%, chelator at 0,1%, formulation has also propanediol at 5%, then Chlorphenesin should be used at 0,3% or lower?
Big brands use glass bottle + dropper, is it a good packaging? There is no contact with product, but there can be contact skin-dropper, and then dropper has a contact with product. 

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@PhilGeis Looking at their preservatives in water-based products, it looks like they’re just using Phenoxyethanol and Disodium EDTA. What are your thoughts on the combination: Phenoxyethanol + Ethylhexylglycerin + Chlorphenesin + Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate?

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@PhilGeis, so how should products be tested? Laboratories don’t offer tests other than ISO 11930, Pharmacopoeia and Schülke Koko Test.