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Pharma said:

Just a consideration: alkyl benzoate is ‘synthetic’. It can help dissolving all the EOs should your lotion require that benefit.

I am developing two products side by side….a premium lotion where C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate would serve as a sensory addition…. This lotion leans more towards….as natural as possible. The premium lotion does not use EO’s….other than a couple fragrance options. And the second product, a mosquito lotion that uses EO’s.  
Regarding the mosquito lotion…. can you use a term other than….’dissolving’, as I am not sure what that means (in relation to essential oils)?  I am shooting for a two hour effective range…which I believe I have already achieved with vanillin and triethyl citrate.  So would ‘dissolving’….shorten or lengthen my 2 hours?  The mosquito lotion…is much more liberal with the ingredient list…..efficacy first!  (If it is ‘dissolving’….. is that happening while the bottle is sitting on the store shelf?)

Regarding the premium….natural first…hehhee…. C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate…sound much worse on a label…than Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiable….in my opinion….but only by a little bit!  

Thank you for your input.  Look forward to your answers!

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Thank you for your comment, and yes I was incorrect in lumping glycerin in with the others!

I will try that one.

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caligirl said:

I’ve removed up to 3% water from my formula, and replaced with up to 3% dimethicone (test) and it works beautifully in reducing the amount of soaping on some lotions that produce the soaping effect.  I’ve also subbed the dimethicone for Daikon Seed and got the same results.  

I have decided to go the route of no dimethicone….  After making about 5 batches this week…I have determined it is very sensitive to which emulsifier I use.  I have also added… Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and that helped….. a lot.  

The 165 emulsifier….and not using stearic to thicken…seems to have done the trick.

I already had daikon seed extract in the formula….but only at 1%.  

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chemicalmatt said:

I am also using Hydrolyzed jojoba esters in another formula…and have heard it has some fragrance fixing properties….any thoughts on this?

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chemicalmatt said:

Use triethyl citrate, best fragrance oil fixative around.

What do you think of C12-15 alkyl benzoate, as a fixative?  Certainly wouldn’t hurt the lotion to add it, just didn’t know if it brings anything to the table…..as far as fixatives go?

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Thank you all…the 350 is cheapest, and available from multiple suppliers that I regularly use.

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ozgirl said:

Functional ingredients  – such as an
antioxidant, preservative, diluent, solvent or color.

Sodium thiosulfate is listed as being used in fragrances as a functional ingredient so if it is added to your fragrance to stop oxidation you can probably get away with listing the combination (fragrance + sodium thiosulfate) as “fragrance”.

Ahh…I’m sure that is it….an antioxidant for the fragrance.
I knew the practice was widespread.
I like that!  

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Pharma said:

Here around it’s not a fragrance and I don’t think it is in the US either…

Yea, sulfite ain’t that loved on ingredient lists ;( .

Of course I know it is not a ‘fragrance’…. but the vendors are using some ‘loophole’ to market it as fragrance, so they can sell a cheap ingredient for a high price.  I was just curious as to what that loophole was!  

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Gunther said:

Graillotion said:

Gunther said:

You definitely need to buy small amounts of each one and try them both for yourself.
Experimenting is key to succeeding in cosmetic chemistry (and any chemistry field too). You can only get so far by reading without experimenting yourself.

Thank you for your comment…Yes I agree…. I have tried Cetyl, Cetrl Palmitate, and MM, in the same formula, and definitely preferred the Cetyl Palmitate to the other two!  

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Thank you for the comments so far…. I read some old posts….and the conclusion was… dimethicone was best….one formulator that tried all the natural routes said… “Dimethicone was 3X better than all other options…”  Other options were Plantasens…and Isoamyl’s.

I was hoping….that maybe there was some recent research on new products…that would help me circumvent the dimethicone route.

If I elect to use dimethicone….what is the minimum amount needed to reduce soaping?  (Soaping is not major….I am just super adverse to it).  Please do not give the rate in cps…hehehe…more like a percentage…. .5%?)

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Gunther said:

Interesting because you can clearly tell the difference between cetyl and cetearyl (I haven’t tried Behenyl alcohol myself).
I believe the cetyl/cetearyl difference is that the former is more homogeneous than the later, so the crystal emulsion structure, hence the feel is different.

Just curious….which feel do you prefer….between cetyl and cetearyl?

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Pharma said:

How many % did you use?

Only 1.75%

Just made a batch with MM (arrived today)…another different feel….I am still ruminating on it….I’ll let you know my thoughts….tomorrow.

I am a little shocked….how different the product becomes….just exchanging the fatty alcohol.

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Pharma said:

helenhelen said:

…Is the “dry-ish silkiness” a similar effect to using isopropyl myristate?

And how different is the effect of cetyl palmitate to cetyl alcohol?

 cetyl palmitate remains on the skin as something which feels (to me) a bit like powder and turns oils less slippery/greasy.

Cetyl alcohol and cetyl palmitate are complementary, they cover two different aspects.

Cetyl alcohol doesn’t ‘feel’ on the skin… well, sure it does but the effect is not very noticeable in a cream IMHO. Cetyl alcohol changes the cream itself which is mostly an effect on viscosity, stability, and optics. Obviously, viscosity is felt upon application but just when scooping the product out of the jar and then for the first seconds of application but then quickly fades away during rubbing in. That’s when cetyl palmitate starts showing and excels once the cream has absorbed into the skin

OMG…finally got around to subbing in just cetyl alcohol instead of cetyl palmitate…. YUCK!!!  Made if feel oily like Vaseline. I suppose it is formula specific. (And of course….all points of view are skewed by personal preference!).

Thanx for the tips….still waiting for sample of MM.

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https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=4%25+Hyaluronic+acid+solution&docid=608019248263595434&mid=486B8DEFF57BD0B89BDD486B8DEFF57BD0B89BDD&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

I guess it is possible to get 4% into solution.  
I learn something new everyday!

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On your sodium HA….did you mean you would choose one of those….or you planned on using 4%?
I don’t think you can get 4% into solution? (or you meant .4%?)
At 1%…you already have a nice thick product.

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I am not so naïve as to think….all slippery ingredients will have the same effect on soaping.  That is why I seek the mechanical means in which dimethicone reduces soaping.   …. Ultimately I would like to duplicate those mechanics…in a natural format….if it can be done.

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As you get a little bigger….you can buy directly from the mfg.  I am buying some components from FloraTech, directly.  Their min purchase on many ingredients is 15-17 Kg.

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For small timer: (like me)
LotionCrafter  (top choice)
http://www.makeyourown.buzz/
brambleberry
Ingredients to die for
New directions (Canada)

Lots of fake ingredients…on ebay and Amazon…best to stay away from those.  The above listed…have a good reputation.

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I always add, after making the emulsion, and during cooldown….below 120F.

Any reason you are adding it so early?

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My motto in life has always been….Learn something new everyday.  Hehheehe…. Pharma, I think I have my quota for the week.

I forgot to mention….emulsifier 165….actually creates a very white version of the lotion!  I just don’t care that much for the sensory package that come along with 165.  However, I have resigned myself to working on the sensory aspect through a vehicle other than the emulsifier.  I am gonna give MONTANOV 202 a shot before I wrap this up…..supposed to give the sensory + great whitening.  We’ll see!   Got a box coming from Floratech today….and hoping me sensory package will be upgraded.

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EVchem said:

Montanov 202 will make a nice white formula (Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside ), if that’s something you can get your hands on. I think smaller emulsion size would also make the cream appear whiter

I will request a sample from ULP.
Thank you for the tip.

I did not understand….the concept of smaller emulsion size…would make a cream appear whiter?

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ngarayeva001 said:

 I started noticing that I love old materials. Arlacel 165, Polysorbates (you can do soo much with them), 

In my former life, I used to say, the only reason a product gets ‘old’ is because it has done a good job for a long time!
Per another suggestion on a related question…. I think I will give one more product a try…. Montanov 202.

I like the thin emulsion that 165 creates…gives me total control on what I use as thickener, and how thick I make it…. Hehehe….lets me choose between flip tops and pumps!  

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ngarayeva001 said:

Yes, there’s an emulsifier that is used in huge numbers of high end product. It’s Arlacel 165 (GMS/PEG 100 stearate). It’s loved by the industry  for versatility and reliability. 

Yes, I have 165 and in fact have selected it for the other project that I am developing simultaneously, a very difficult to emulsify mosquito lotion.  
In the beginning, I had hoped that I could end up….with a one size fits all emulsifier, and after chasing all the ‘fancy’ emulsifiers around….might just end up with 165 as my all around.
Interesting note…. My mosquito lotion has lots of Vanillin in it…which causes terrific oxidation/browning.  165 is the only emulsifier that almost single handedly kept the browning at bay.  I also found that the vanillin would recrystallize in about 80% of the emulsifiers I tried, giving the feel of a little grit or sand in the product (totally unacceptable).

Thank you for confirming that thought.  I have some products arriving from Floratech tomorrow, and I am hoping they will put my premium lotion….over the top.  Right now it is good….just not blow your mind….amazing!

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Pharma said:

One last question….the re-packers that are selling Browning reducers (metabisulfite) and listing it as…. ‘Fragrance’.  (INCL)

Can I do this also?  And the reason I ask…is two fold… I doubt I will ever come across a customer that says….Wow…finally found a lotion with metabisulfite in it!!!!

and

I am looking to minimize ingredient list….and since I will already be using ‘fragrance’….it kills two birds with one stone.

I am sure they (the re-packers) are using ‘fragrance’….so people like me don’t discover how easy and cheap that ingredient is to work with.

Thank You 

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Pharma said:

BTW if you were to use a dark airless dispenser, a pinch of ascorbic acid or ascorbyl palmitate should also do the trick because you worst enemy or the real problem is oxygen and sunlight (UV). A pH above 6 simply speeds up the reaction and amines are probably not present in your product.

Thank you.  I always use colored PET bottles…except when I am testing…then I use clear…and leave them in a warm sunny window…to aggravate the situation, and so I can observe.  I have discussed pumps vs flip tops…and will use pumps on this formula…I know…not the same as airless….but I think better than flip tops…   No Amines.

Thanx again for your insightful comments.