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EVchem said:

I don’t think emulsifiers/ fatty alcohols will be able to impact greasiness as effectively as adding starch, clay, or some other filler. 

Thank you…. I do use some Arrowroot powder….apparently not enough (.7%).

Where I got the idea about the emulsifier….as I am working on another lotion…. the emulsifiers I have experimented with….seem to have a drastic effect on the oiliness or dry feel….after the first 10-15 min.  165 leaves a dry feeling skin….very shortly after use…whereas the Botaneco Hydresia…. leaves a very smooth and silky feel, that feels like the some of the oil is still on the surface.  (Not a negative oily)

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Pharma said:

 For your climate, behenyl alcohol might be more suitable due to its higher melting point???

Just a question from a novice….. I noticed that behenyl alcohol involves some long chain fatties…. The formula already includes 1% Jojoba and 1% Meadowfoam… Is there a chance I would be getting too much long chains, and hence causeing a problem of some kind…..albeit formulation or skin feel?

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natzam44 

If cetyl alcohol is cheaper or more widely available in your region, then you may want to just go with that. 

 I was leaning towards cetyl…and haven’t read much to dissuade me, so will probably go that way.  I’ll get the ester version as well…and compare them in formula.  Hehehe…in Hawaii….none of the products are available….just whatever can be sent from the mainland.  I’ll look again at behenyl alcohol, as melting point is a concern.

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Thank you all, for your comments… I guess I will just try and master the fine points of adding Carbomer correctly!  Jennycat, I do use .2% Xgum in all my emulsions.

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helenhelen 

Is cetyl palmitate problematic in terms of increasing a draggy effect and whitening/soaping on rub-in?

Thanks so much, and sorry @Graillotion for hijacking this thread! 

No worries…I am here to learn….and look forward to seeing the answers to your Q’s….as I had similar ones.

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While we are at it….lets include: Cetyl Esters in the conversation.

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chemicalmatt said:

Use 1.0% TEC in the total formula.

Thank You!  You have been wonderfully helpful!

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chemicalmatt said:

Use in proportion to your fragrance and/or essentials. I think 1.00% sounds about right - 

Still a little confused…. I included 1% TEC based on all ingredients.  My Essential oils are 3% of all ingredients.  So you are agreeing with TEC at a rate of 1% of total?….. or 1% of the 3% EO’s???  Please clarify.  Thank You.

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I made a sample last night with 1% TEC, and with an unscientific sniff test on my arm an hour after application…. I could still smell the EO’s quite well, where as previous batches, I mainly smelled just Vanillin after an hour!  

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Bill_Toge, thank you….hehehe…believe it or not….I have requested some of that on UL two days ago.  Sometimes they send….sometimes no….hehehe…I have a gmail address….so that really throws up red flags.

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Pharma, hehehe…fun read.
ROE : Rosemary Oil Extract
Vanillin, though a white crystal, causes other ingredients to brown….often in as little as two days.  And yes, I am using it as a fixative…. Been shown to reduce volatility much better than P-20.  (And yes, I like the scent it brings… perfect blender with my EO group.)
The carrier oils I listed…have been used for a thousand years in the Amazon and Africa as natural bug defense.  Many doctoral papers have been written on them…which I have (for better or worse) read.
I have looked at Picaridin and IR3535, and might as well include Oil of Lemon Eucalyptus (PMD)….and they don’t fit my model.  I would have loved to have added PMD…but it not available at my level/budget.

I do not plan on making repelling claims…for all the reasons you are aware of… but I have huge demand already, and the product is not finalized…still having emulsion issues.  My vendors are begging for it…hehehe….maybe they have received some preliminary samples….hehehe.  (It smells really good!) … People are always stopping me, asking what my cologne is.

I live in Hawaii, and have a yard with just under 1000 types of plants, so I spend a lot of time outside.  I am a mosquito magnet, and we have them 365.  So I created this lotion out of personal necessity.  I had tried sooooo many bad ones over the years (non-deet)…. That I came to the conclusion….if you want it done right….do it yourself.  The only (natural) one over the years that actually worked…was heavy on Vanillin….and the research I did…concurred.  I do get a good belly laugh…when I see all these bloggers….tell people the can use Vanilla…in lieu of Vanillin….hehehe… I think Vanilla actually attracts them!

One of the carrier oils listed….directly translates…Bitter oil.  When I wear this lotion….I will sit in the rainforest for an hour…. and watch the mosquitos behavior…. No landings….and they give up their inspection of me…within 3-5 seconds….keeping in mind….without it….I am their favorite.   Without it….they will follow me around for 30 seconds plus, even with swatting.

So yes….many have failed on this path, but I have made some great steps forward. probably 300-500 hours of reading on the topic…..yup lots of boring thesis reads.  So the finishing touches I need…is a emulsifier I am happy with, and I want to create a synergy of fixatives.  I have Triethyl Citrate arriving Monday, and will toss that into the brew, and I think the finalist for emulifiers will be traditional e-wax and Sepigel 305.  I am having to use 7% ethyl to dissolve the 3% Vanillin.  All my more natural emulsifiers have failed miserably.

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EVchem said:

What kind of lotion/actives will you have- how much oil content and are you going to use hot or cold process? Every emulsifier has strengths depending on the environment 

BTMS is cationic and common for conditioners- it works well for hair but on skin it might not feel as smooth and spread as nicely

Oil content 14% +/-1%, butters 4%

vitamins, ACE+B5

Allantoin

odds and ends: Hyaluronic acid, propanediol, silk amino acids

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jemolian said:

There are quite a lot of PEG free natural emulsifiers so which have you tried? 

So far:
 INCI (USA & EU): Candelilla/Jojoba/Rice Bran Polyglyceryl-3 Esters, Glyceryl Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Stearic Acid, Copernicia Cerifera (Carnauba) Wax 

INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate

INCI: Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Cetearyl Glucoside

INCI: Polyglyceryl-6 Distearate (and) Jojoba Esters (and) Polyglyceryl-3 Beeswax (and) Cetyl Alcohol

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ggpetrov, I had looked at O 1000, many times….but always heard such negative comments about the soaping.  I am not familiar with adding the emulsifier into the water phase….is O 1000 water soluble? 

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lewhitak, thank you for that information, I will look into those.

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Perry, I have not called it repelling….I think there is a difference between mosquito lotion, and mosquito repelling lotion.  Am I wrong about this?

Perry said:

If you’re not using DEET, you shouldn’t be calling it a mosquito lotion. 

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Cafe33, the last batch I made…I added ROE and dl panth, as that was about the only two antioxi’s I had on the bench…. I think I will get some Vit E, and toss that in there as well.  (The E that I have is too expensive…with CoQ10 and squalene.)
So far that last batch is look’n good…. I have it in a clear bottle sitting in the window….as I do will all my batches…

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Should probably start a new topic….but let me toss this out there… Typically I make ‘reasonably natural’ lotions that are super light…and non-greasy…simply by selecting oils that are….non-greasy.  On my mosquito lotion…not only am I using the typical….EO’s….but also using only carrier oils that are thought to repel…ie: Karanja, Pracaxy, Andiroba, Soy, etc…  I am ending up with a product that has a little greasier feeling than I like… But I want to keep those oils….since the product (personal testing only) is 100% effective for more than 1 hour.  What (if anything) can I add…to make oily oils feel less oily?   …..Hehehe….and prefer something reasonably natural….  

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Cafe33, I realize….the word ‘Natural’ … can be fight’n words….hehehe….so I have taken to the term….reasonably natural…hehehe…no one argues with me.  

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chemicalmatt, thanx for the comment…I did some searching and am interested in that.  Since I will be buying a small quantity (found a seller of small amounts, even the Natural version)…. But I did not find anything in regards to formulation….inclusion rate.  Typically when I add ingredients…I use % of total formula….so if you can give me some info on inclusion rate, please specify…. inclusion rate of entire lotion…. or percentage based on just the essential oils… 
Thanx!

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Gene, Thanks for tossing me a comment.

After I posted… I got an email from Tree to tub, offering a FREE bottle of their new body wash….hehehe…I guess that will be the first one I test!  

Hehehe….I know about the ‘leftovers’… I think I have a 100 bottles of lotion laying around!

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Cafe33 thank you for your insight.  Couple of q’s….sometimes multiple modes of action…(example….several types of fixative) work synergistically…and sometimes it is just stupid repetition.  Regarding fixatives and essential oils…. would multiple fixatives be redundant, or synergistic? …. (I am sure the answer will include something to the effect of…depends how each works… So if you could list a couple that would work synergistically…that would be helpful… )

Regarding Aerosil 200…. haven’t done my long drawn out study yet….but in my 15 min preview….I saw no mention of ‘fixative’ as a feature.  I realize that products can be used in many ways… but would you consider it common knowledge/practice in the cosmetic industry… Aerosil 200 is being used as a fixative in leave-on products? 

I also discovered on my workbench….I had PPG-20 Menthyl Glucose Ether…. Any thoughts on this product as a fixative? 

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Avick , regarding the Benzyl Benzoate, do you know if this can be used as a sole solvent for Vanillin?  I had heard that BB and B Alcohol in a 50/50 blend was an effective solvent for Vanillin.  I would like to minimize the ingredients, so if BB by itself was a solvent, and ALSO gave me some ‘fixative’ aspects…that would be a stone that killed many birds at once.

Love to hear your thoughts….or anyone else with some insight on the topic.

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Thank you Avick, your answer was very helpful.  I had come across coumarin in my research, and after further review, my interest is perked.  Do you have any idea was the inclusion rate would be?  A quick scan of ebay/amazon shows about $8/ounce.  Not sure my regular (small) suppliers are going to carry this.

Thank You.

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I have Benzyl benzoate on hand, but don’t know the use rate for a leave on lotion.
And I could get Glucam P 20, from one of my suppliers.