[Graillotion]

I bought this one:

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/checker-plus-ph-tester-hi98100-plus-hanna-instruments/

After reading some of the comments on this site…and have been happy with it.  There is also a cheaper $29 version of it….on the same site.

[Graillotion]

I do think…..’averaging + antioxidants’….is some kind of thing!  

I use a multi-oil blend (includes meadowfoam)….some of them sensitive… so when they arrive, I mix the blend together with ROE, Vitamin E, and then refrigerate.  Granted my product never gets old as it rotates quickly,  But I am always amazed by how nice my oils are in that format…..Not scientific, just an observation.

This makes production much easier…as I only have to measure one oil product.

Sidebar:  This is something that has surprised me…..I use one oil in particular…that is semi-solid at my room temp…(high elevation Hawaii)…  When included in this blend….and kept in the refrigerator….it is still fluid.  I thought it would separate and solidify!

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letsalcido said:

@Graillotion Since you’re not too far from the right consistency, you could just up the cetyl esters by 1% and Xanthan by another 0.4%, even a bit more of the Glyceryl (and) PEG-100 Stearate. Just upping any or all of these three should provide more thickness but different skin feels.

To  avoid the lotion feeling slimy due to too much Xanthan Gum, maybe upping cetyl esters and 165 would be the better choice.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I am already using the 165 @ 4%.  (Formula is basically 14% natural oils and 3% butters)  It is my understanding…. 165 does not do much thickening (like other emulsifiers….)  So I will make again today…with Cetyl Esters bumped….another percent.
Hehehe….I am already maxed on humectants….as I am using what I imagine to be a synergistic blend…  

Expecting some feedback from my Arizona testers…today.

Aloha.

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Pharma said:

Not much time, doggies need to do what doggies do… More tomorrow?

In short: Cupuacu is triglycerides = chemically reacted fatty acids whereas stearic acid is free acid. Both increase melting point but stearic acid tends to form more/better crystals which thicken the oil even better.

Beeswax? Gellant combo instead of pure xanthan? Different emulsifier… meh… maybe don’t change that. Try different shear force, droplet size matters, although… if it’s at the cost of stability… (I like … too, especially when in a hurry )

Thank you for your feedback!

I have been ALL the way around the block with different emulsifiers….and the 165 just seems to fit the bill….in everyway….and can be used in each of my 3 formulas + it makes the whitest product in my situations…with colored oils.

I suspected that the natural stearic…would NOT perform the same way as the purchased.  Thankyou for the scientific answer.

If I can’t get there with an extra percent of cetyl ester….I will explore a small amount of stearic….hehehe….How bad can it be?  But if I can get there without adding another ingredient to the INCI….all the better.

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Pharma said:

Good question, very good question! 

Sometime I regret the decisions of my youth….like the Business degree (all though it served me well)…instead of the Chemistry degree. As I reflect on life…all the things I learned well….were self taught/learned.  I tell young people….your degree only teaches you how to learn, what you learn is up to you!  All though I fear…schools no longer teach this method of question everything, and ask for proof.  I had some crazy hybrid education…mix of British/American/Korean…hehehe…  Seoul Foreign School.

[Graillotion]

I am using Cetyl esters, and Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba, in the formula already.

The K-20…primarily for it’s occlusive function.

Thankyou for your advice.

[Graillotion]

I realize that ‘averaging’ might sound good on paper….does it work from a scientific perspective? 

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Pharma said:

‘Dissolving’ is this case is a rather colloquial term. 

Thank you for further clarification.  I will formulate the mosquito lotion with C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, adding it to the existing formula…and then go sit in the rainforest (my yard and testing facility).   Because I am using some unique carrier oils… (with repelling qualities)….my product is a touch greasier than I would like…. I am hoping that C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate….might reduce some of that feel.

[Graillotion]

Please list the oils you are using.

Are you getting fresh products from your suppliers?

They might be arriving to you….a the end of their usable life.

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Pharma said:

Tocopherol and rosemary extract come to mind. Ascorbyl palmitate is not entirely natural but made from ‘naturals’ and would be a great partner for aforementioned phenolic antioxidants.

I know it is NOT an antioxidant….but do things like meadowfoam oil help?  I know the sellers brag…that comingling their product extends the life of more prone oils?  Is this marketing or legit?

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EVchem said:

Montanov 202 will make a nice white formula (Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside ), if that’s something you can get your hands on. I think smaller emulsion size would also make the cream appear whiter

Tried the 202…. enjoyed the finished product….but 165 has a pronounced whitening effect, much more than the 202.  And I am guessing the 202 has a MUCH higher price…(they did not respond to pricing questions)… so looks like I will work with 165.   165 works in all my formulas, priced right, easy to work with….therefore….  

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ngarayeva001 said:

“Myristyl myristate will whiten a product” It’s a lovely thickener but I haven’t noticed such a property.

Tried the MM….did not have a noticeable effect on whitening. 
My conclusion is….the emulsifier has the greatest input…. Other than simply adding whiteners.  And 165 had the strongest influence of all that I tried.

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Pharma said:

Just a consideration: alkyl benzoate is ‘synthetic’. It can help dissolving all the EOs should your lotion require that benefit.

I am developing two products side by side….a premium lotion where C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate would serve as a sensory addition…. This lotion leans more towards….as natural as possible. The premium lotion does not use EO’s….other than a couple fragrance options. And the second product, a mosquito lotion that uses EO’s.  
Regarding the mosquito lotion…. can you use a term other than….’dissolving’, as I am not sure what that means (in relation to essential oils)?  I am shooting for a two hour effective range…which I believe I have already achieved with vanillin and triethyl citrate.  So would ‘dissolving’….shorten or lengthen my 2 hours?  The mosquito lotion…is much more liberal with the ingredient list…..efficacy first!  (If it is ‘dissolving’….. is that happening while the bottle is sitting on the store shelf?)

Regarding the premium….natural first…hehhee…. C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate…sound much worse on a label…than Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiable….in my opinion….but only by a little bit!  

Thank you for your input.  Look forward to your answers!

[Graillotion]

Thank you for your comment, and yes I was incorrect in lumping glycerin in with the others!

I will try that one.

[Graillotion]

caligirl said:

I’ve removed up to 3% water from my formula, and replaced with up to 3% dimethicone (test) and it works beautifully in reducing the amount of soaping on some lotions that produce the soaping effect.  I’ve also subbed the dimethicone for Daikon Seed and got the same results.  

I have decided to go the route of no dimethicone….  After making about 5 batches this week…I have determined it is very sensitive to which emulsifier I use.  I have also added… Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and that helped….. a lot.  

The 165 emulsifier….and not using stearic to thicken…seems to have done the trick.

I already had daikon seed extract in the formula….but only at 1%.  

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chemicalmatt said:

I am also using Hydrolyzed jojoba esters in another formula…and have heard it has some fragrance fixing properties….any thoughts on this?

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chemicalmatt said:

Use triethyl citrate, best fragrance oil fixative around.

What do you think of C12-15 alkyl benzoate, as a fixative?  Certainly wouldn’t hurt the lotion to add it, just didn’t know if it brings anything to the table…..as far as fixatives go?

[Graillotion]

Thank you all…the 350 is cheapest, and available from multiple suppliers that I regularly use.

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ozgirl said:

Functional ingredients  – such as an
antioxidant, preservative, diluent, solvent or color.

Sodium thiosulfate is listed as being used in fragrances as a functional ingredient so if it is added to your fragrance to stop oxidation you can probably get away with listing the combination (fragrance + sodium thiosulfate) as “fragrance”.

Ahh…I’m sure that is it….an antioxidant for the fragrance.
I knew the practice was widespread.
I like that!  

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Pharma said:

Here around it’s not a fragrance and I don’t think it is in the US either…

Yea, sulfite ain’t that loved on ingredient lists ;( .

Of course I know it is not a ‘fragrance’…. but the vendors are using some ‘loophole’ to market it as fragrance, so they can sell a cheap ingredient for a high price.  I was just curious as to what that loophole was!  

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Gunther said:

Graillotion said:

Gunther said:

You definitely need to buy small amounts of each one and try them both for yourself.
Experimenting is key to succeeding in cosmetic chemistry (and any chemistry field too). You can only get so far by reading without experimenting yourself.

Thank you for your comment…Yes I agree…. I have tried Cetyl, Cetrl Palmitate, and MM, in the same formula, and definitely preferred the Cetyl Palmitate to the other two!  

[Graillotion]

Thank you for the comments so far…. I read some old posts….and the conclusion was… dimethicone was best….one formulator that tried all the natural routes said… “Dimethicone was 3X better than all other options…”  Other options were Plantasens…and Isoamyl’s.

I was hoping….that maybe there was some recent research on new products…that would help me circumvent the dimethicone route.

If I elect to use dimethicone….what is the minimum amount needed to reduce soaping?  (Soaping is not major….I am just super adverse to it).  Please do not give the rate in cps…hehehe…more like a percentage…. .5%?)

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Gunther said:

Interesting because you can clearly tell the difference between cetyl and cetearyl (I haven’t tried Behenyl alcohol myself).
I believe the cetyl/cetearyl difference is that the former is more homogeneous than the later, so the crystal emulsion structure, hence the feel is different.

Just curious….which feel do you prefer….between cetyl and cetearyl?

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Pharma said:

How many % did you use?

Only 1.75%

Just made a batch with MM (arrived today)…another different feel….I am still ruminating on it….I’ll let you know my thoughts….tomorrow.

I am a little shocked….how different the product becomes….just exchanging the fatty alcohol.

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Pharma said:

helenhelen said:

…Is the “dry-ish silkiness” a similar effect to using isopropyl myristate?

And how different is the effect of cetyl palmitate to cetyl alcohol?

 cetyl palmitate remains on the skin as something which feels (to me) a bit like powder and turns oils less slippery/greasy.

Cetyl alcohol and cetyl palmitate are complementary, they cover two different aspects.

Cetyl alcohol doesn’t ‘feel’ on the skin… well, sure it does but the effect is not very noticeable in a cream IMHO. Cetyl alcohol changes the cream itself which is mostly an effect on viscosity, stability, and optics. Obviously, viscosity is felt upon application but just when scooping the product out of the jar and then for the first seconds of application but then quickly fades away during rubbing in. That’s when cetyl palmitate starts showing and excels once the cream has absorbed into the skin

OMG…finally got around to subbing in just cetyl alcohol instead of cetyl palmitate…. YUCK!!!  Made if feel oily like Vaseline. I suppose it is formula specific. (And of course….all points of view are skewed by personal preference!).

Thanx for the tips….still waiting for sample of MM.